actually they do upgrade violins - even old and expensive ones! Even those of the Italian masters. I have heard that almost none are in the same state as when they were made..Someone else may know more about this..
Last edited:
ehh, nooo, they were originally baroque instruments, made with a more straight "horisontal" neck, and using natural strings made from cats ...This kind of setup is still used by some musicians playing bach etc, where it gives that special sweet sound
http://webspace.webring.com/people/ns/stainerjacobus/id57.htm
But most of the old violins have been rebuilt with a modern slanted neck, and mounted with steel strings
Inner bass beam may also have been replaced by a stronger heavier one
Astoundingly such instruments retain their superiodity, despite the radical intervention
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWQKNKw4J8Y
Interesting postings Ian...... i am glad you are with us.
Man...... Mr. Stradivarius will be extremelly bothered if he know people are doing these things with his masterpiece of art.
Well..... each one of us with our opinions about....i do think it is criminal to use anything but a piece of cloth to wipe dust from the Violine...to keep it protected against sunligth and inside a soft case (inside) and hard case outside to protect.... when not in use playing good music, naturally.
I do think the same about Tinitus violines and other craftsman products..not done in series, or a small series..these ones are rarities, a piece of history, should be respected and protected.... the same to the first amplifier Mr.Pass made.. terrible if someone decide to replace a single resistance there.
People dismounting, installing metalic reinforcements..my God!... this seems criminal to my eyes.
I have listened a Stradivarius playing.... and then compared to an ordinary, common, standard violine, these ones made almost in series..... what a difference!.... even not comparing, played my the same man, you can notice it is better... but how better..only comparing.
regards,
Carlos
Man...... Mr. Stradivarius will be extremelly bothered if he know people are doing these things with his masterpiece of art.
Well..... each one of us with our opinions about....i do think it is criminal to use anything but a piece of cloth to wipe dust from the Violine...to keep it protected against sunligth and inside a soft case (inside) and hard case outside to protect.... when not in use playing good music, naturally.
I do think the same about Tinitus violines and other craftsman products..not done in series, or a small series..these ones are rarities, a piece of history, should be respected and protected.... the same to the first amplifier Mr.Pass made.. terrible if someone decide to replace a single resistance there.
People dismounting, installing metalic reinforcements..my God!... this seems criminal to my eyes.
I have listened a Stradivarius playing.... and then compared to an ordinary, common, standard violine, these ones made almost in series..... what a difference!.... even not comparing, played my the same man, you can notice it is better... but how better..only comparing.
regards,
Carlos
Last edited:
You are absolutely right
Lots of these rebuilding was done years ago
Today I doubt anyone would dare to change such instruments
Whatever we think about it, no original barogue violin would have a chance in todays big modern orchestras
You know, its really the same with regards to the music....Mozart, Beethoven, etc
In their time it NEVER sounded like today
We have changed their music too
Or maybe we play their music the way they would have wanted to themselves
Oh yes, I think Stradivarious, Beethoven etc, they would all like and approve what we do today, with their things
If you have interest, there are some orchestras specialising in original music, played on original instruments
btw, a strange thing most dont know about violins like Stradivari is that it wears out from hard professional use
At some point it gets "tired" and worn out, and cannot be used professionally anymore
Apparently its hard to be a violin too
Well, I wont bother you with my crazy hobby
Lots of these rebuilding was done years ago
Today I doubt anyone would dare to change such instruments
Whatever we think about it, no original barogue violin would have a chance in todays big modern orchestras
You know, its really the same with regards to the music....Mozart, Beethoven, etc
In their time it NEVER sounded like today
We have changed their music too
Or maybe we play their music the way they would have wanted to themselves
Oh yes, I think Stradivarious, Beethoven etc, they would all like and approve what we do today, with their things
If you have interest, there are some orchestras specialising in original music, played on original instruments
btw, a strange thing most dont know about violins like Stradivari is that it wears out from hard professional use
At some point it gets "tired" and worn out, and cannot be used professionally anymore
Apparently its hard to be a violin too
Well, I wont bother you with my crazy hobby
In fact there is a growing number of these orchestra that are playing on authentic or historical instruments, and some conductors, like Harnoncourt, Gardiner, Herreweghe and others are specialized in authentic instrumentation.
Perhaps Tinni, you also seriously play these beautiful things. My pianist father used to swear by (and at!) recordings of solo violin to set up his Hi-fi turntable and speakers. The point being that the violin's high register might also make a very on topic listening test for the real design aim of Carlos' Blame ES/ST, if he likes the idea.
Think of it as the main performance test! - Blame ES v Paganini!
best regards
Think of it as the main performance test! - Blame ES v Paganini!
best regards
Hello Carlos and Cal
Just a last one... this one are not completely off topic...
Cal, if you want to delete it, wait a day, so few guys my be interest to know a bit more about the subject.
Like an amplifier a violin do need a good frequency response, depending of the tickness and quality of the woods, you will have a tone from a violin, we call it tap tone because we tap on the violin plate to eard it's tone.
A good violin will have the four strings with about same level of sound wen you play them, it will not be flat as an amplifier but the frequency response of a good violin will be sort of flat with four equal peak from the four strings. And a good violin will not loss all the harmonic from the strings and the woods resonances, and the note from the violin need to have ringing, meaning some sustain, so the note will not fade to fast.
A cheap violin will not have the four strings with about same level of sound wen you play it and the note will fade to fast, and it will loss lot of the harmonic from the strings and the woods resonances.
A good woods for violin making, wen dry, will ring like a bell wen you knock on it (but with lower volume than a real bell).
To know much more, you can go there;
CAS Forum Home Page
Btw, I was violin maker for few years, but since people buy more chineese violin all violin makers in the region did moved or changed job.
Bye
Gaetan
Just a last one... this one are not completely off topic...
Cal, if you want to delete it, wait a day, so few guys my be interest to know a bit more about the subject.
Like an amplifier a violin do need a good frequency response, depending of the tickness and quality of the woods, you will have a tone from a violin, we call it tap tone because we tap on the violin plate to eard it's tone.
A good violin will have the four strings with about same level of sound wen you play them, it will not be flat as an amplifier but the frequency response of a good violin will be sort of flat with four equal peak from the four strings. And a good violin will not loss all the harmonic from the strings and the woods resonances, and the note from the violin need to have ringing, meaning some sustain, so the note will not fade to fast.
A cheap violin will not have the four strings with about same level of sound wen you play it and the note will fade to fast, and it will loss lot of the harmonic from the strings and the woods resonances.
A good woods for violin making, wen dry, will ring like a bell wen you knock on it (but with lower volume than a real bell).
To know much more, you can go there;
CAS Forum Home Page
Btw, I was violin maker for few years, but since people buy more chineese violin all violin makers in the region did moved or changed job.
Bye
Gaetan
Last edited:
Hello
Yes, making an amplifier is technical matter, but some excellent amps designers do also use intuitions and not only technic.
Hugh Dean are a example of that.
And violin making are also a sciences, read from Carleen Maley Hutchins, she done lot of scientific works who help in violin making understanding. Joseph Curtin are a violin maker who use both arts and sciences to made some of the best violins in the world.
I will not talk more about violin, it's becoming quite off topic.
Bye
Gaetan
Last edited:
I would rather say that some, though well technically educated, rely more on ears than on a conventional set of measurements. Their everyday listening experience taught them that conventional measurements are not still able to cover all audible issues, though they are of course necessary during development stage. Not necessarily during final tuning and assessment stage.
Hi Carlinhos,
I don't think a parallel between violin making and amp making is OT!
Art and science, the mix between well established conventional practice and courageous innovation, the unstoping listening tests and experimentation...it is almost the same for me. I think if Carlos would have born in the XVII century he probably would have applied for a place at Stradivarius' or Guarnerius' attelliers
About "historicists versions" of "classical" music, I don't like them very much, usually. Think of Beethoven (given he was mentioned), the guy was an innovator! I bet he hated repeating himself or other guy's language and would have loved more powerful instruments to be the way through which his heroic music could be better represented.
I don't think a parallel between violin making and amp making is OT!
Art and science, the mix between well established conventional practice and courageous innovation, the unstoping listening tests and experimentation...it is almost the same for me. I think if Carlos would have born in the XVII century he probably would have applied for a place at Stradivarius' or Guarnerius' attelliers
About "historicists versions" of "classical" music, I don't like them very much, usually. Think of Beethoven (given he was mentioned), the guy was an innovator! I bet he hated repeating himself or other guy's language and would have loved more powerful instruments to be the way through which his heroic music could be better represented.
Hey
Gaetan, what you explained about equal tonality, isnt it in english called "tonal equality"
In hifi I reckon it would be like coherency, right
Funny with all those strange words
About intuition, it might be worth to note that intuition of the skilled is very different from the lesser skilled
Intuition of the skilled is to a wide extend based on knowledge
But theres a variation I like better....intuitive
On subject title
Maybe consider any acoustic instrument as a "mechanical device with acoustical amplification"
My favourite tools
Just fooling around to try my new camera
Gaetan, what you explained about equal tonality, isnt it in english called "tonal equality"
In hifi I reckon it would be like coherency, right
Funny with all those strange words
About intuition, it might be worth to note that intuition of the skilled is very different from the lesser skilled
Intuition of the skilled is to a wide extend based on knowledge
But theres a variation I like better....intuitive
On subject title
Maybe consider any acoustic instrument as a "mechanical device with acoustical amplification"
My favourite tools
Just fooling around to try my new camera
Attachments
Hey
Gaetan, what you explained about equal tonality, isnt it in english called "tonal equality"
In hifi I reckon it would be like coherency, right
Funny with all those strange words
About intuition, it might be worth to note that intuition of the skilled is very different from the lesser skilled
Intuition of the skilled is to a wide extend based on knowledge
But theres a variation I like better....intuitive
On subject title
Maybe consider any acoustic instrument as a "mechanical device with acoustical amplification"
My favourite tools
Just fooling around to try my new camera
Hello Titinus and all guys
Nice tools that you have, my small planes was made with mapple woods by an old violin makers who give it to me about 12 years ago.
I'm not very good in english, so here is an image of what I was meaning, you can see text and three violin measurements graphic showing it.
And yes, violin are a mechanical device for acoustical amplification.
Bye
Gaetan
Attachments
Last edited:
Hi Everyone,
I’d just like to add my opinion to this discussion. I am an instrument maker as well as a musician and I have built violins as well as amplifiers. However, I don’t think you can compare the two. As it has already been pointed out a violin (or any acoustic musical instrument for that matter) has a built in form of amplifier to bring the sound to an audible level. Without this amplification in its design the musical instrument would require pick-ups or microphones and an electronic amplifier similar to an electric guitar in order to be played in public.
The violin is a very efficient design and the choice of spruce provides a material of excellent resonance for the soundboard. A sound post mounted below the bridge transmits the high frequency vibrations to the instruments back to augment the volume. A bass bar (a strut attached below the bass side of the bridge) amplifies the lower frequencies into the soundboard. The beauty of any musical instrument is that it is not only an objet of art but that it can also be used to create music. An amplifier on the other hand is simply an electronic device used to amplify recorded music. Certainly there are very good quality amplifiers out there being used for hi-fi systems and some are perhaps personal designs and hand made, but they still don’t create music, they amplify the incoming signals they receive and nothing more.
vielle568
I’d just like to add my opinion to this discussion. I am an instrument maker as well as a musician and I have built violins as well as amplifiers. However, I don’t think you can compare the two. As it has already been pointed out a violin (or any acoustic musical instrument for that matter) has a built in form of amplifier to bring the sound to an audible level. Without this amplification in its design the musical instrument would require pick-ups or microphones and an electronic amplifier similar to an electric guitar in order to be played in public.
The violin is a very efficient design and the choice of spruce provides a material of excellent resonance for the soundboard. A sound post mounted below the bridge transmits the high frequency vibrations to the instruments back to augment the volume. A bass bar (a strut attached below the bass side of the bridge) amplifies the lower frequencies into the soundboard. The beauty of any musical instrument is that it is not only an objet of art but that it can also be used to create music. An amplifier on the other hand is simply an electronic device used to amplify recorded music. Certainly there are very good quality amplifiers out there being used for hi-fi systems and some are perhaps personal designs and hand made, but they still don’t create music, they amplify the incoming signals they receive and nothing more.
vielle568
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.