I have a project guitar which has two humbuckers in a thick cedar top over a hollowed-out mahogany body...I got some Piezo tape to add that kind of sound to it. I know I could passively mix in the un-buffered piezo signal with a VU pot or tandem mixing pot, and I can make a FET preamp-buffer from the Forrest Mimms books you get from Radio Shack...Does anyone have a proper schematic for mxing piezo with magnetic? Do I take the FET-buffered signal and tie it to the output of the magnetics? Or do the volume controls fight each other? Some commercial hybrid instruments have two outputs and special cables, some, like the Parker Fly, mix it all internally or by way of cables...
Advise me, someone...
Jonathan
Advise me, someone...
Jonathan
I don't think you will get good results by passively mixing them. This link has good information and preamp schematics:
http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/piezo-pickups.txt
I think your best bet is a 2 channel preamp in the guitar, 1 for piezo, 1 for humbucker. You can then sum these to a mono output jack.
What *I* would do is wire it in such a way (stereo jack) that a stereo guitar cord could be used to route the pickups to different effects or amps, but plugging in a mono cord would still work by manually shorting the 2 preamp outputs. What I expect this to boil down to is to build 2 channels of the preamp shown in that link and play with input and output resistors to get it to sound good.
http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/piezo-pickups.txt
I think your best bet is a 2 channel preamp in the guitar, 1 for piezo, 1 for humbucker. You can then sum these to a mono output jack.
What *I* would do is wire it in such a way (stereo jack) that a stereo guitar cord could be used to route the pickups to different effects or amps, but plugging in a mono cord would still work by manually shorting the 2 preamp outputs. What I expect this to boil down to is to build 2 channels of the preamp shown in that link and play with input and output resistors to get it to sound good.
Done it before
You can mix them passively, but whether the outputs will match depends on the piezo pickup you're using.
I did it on an old P bass copy, used an alarm piezo as the pickup (under the bridge) and the tone control as the vol control for the piezo. Added a nice bit of 'acoustic' sound good for finger style playing as I recall
Pete McK
You can mix them passively, but whether the outputs will match depends on the piezo pickup you're using.
I did it on an old P bass copy, used an alarm piezo as the pickup (under the bridge) and the tone control as the vol control for the piezo. Added a nice bit of 'acoustic' sound good for finger style playing as I recall
Pete McK
Hybrid thoughts...
Thanks for those. I'd read the article/conversation before, and prob'ly have it printed somewhere, which is why the "basic Semiconductor Circuits" preamp stuck in my mind. I think I could preamp the one and not the mags; or do both...we'll see and I'll let you know... would you add a bypass somehow into the jack that if you weren't using the active circuit it still worked passively? Or a second passive jack in addition to the suggested stereo/mixing jack...(I tend to think of every possible feature to build into projects; the actual guitars I use most often are basic and tried-and-true recipes, not wonder-axes.)
Thanks again, kindred tinkerers.
Jonathan
Thanks for those. I'd read the article/conversation before, and prob'ly have it printed somewhere, which is why the "basic Semiconductor Circuits" preamp stuck in my mind. I think I could preamp the one and not the mags; or do both...we'll see and I'll let you know... would you add a bypass somehow into the jack that if you weren't using the active circuit it still worked passively? Or a second passive jack in addition to the suggested stereo/mixing jack...(I tend to think of every possible feature to build into projects; the actual guitars I use most often are basic and tried-and-true recipes, not wonder-axes.)
Thanks again, kindred tinkerers.
Jonathan
Lets talk some sense here :
For recording you need a stereo jack to 2 mono lead.
For playing you need stereo jack to one mono lead.
(might not work well)
Alternatively :
You have the piezo for recording only, so for
playing with mono / mono lead its ignored.
Personally I don't think a tape Peizo would work well.
sreten.
For recording you need a stereo jack to 2 mono lead.
For playing you need stereo jack to one mono lead.
(might not work well)
Alternatively :
You have the piezo for recording only, so for
playing with mono / mono lead its ignored.
Personally I don't think a tape Peizo would work well.
sreten.
Re: Hybrid thoughts...
No, I don't think this would work; this is what I tried to say. I think paralleling the preamp output with the high impedance humbucker output both driving into an amp input would screw things up royally. It would have to be a preamp designed for this purpose and not the generic circuits you see published.
This is one of those things that's a "whatever turns you on". I prefer a guitar that looks traditional and has a "default" mode where it can be plugged straight into a guitar amp with a mono cord. If you like switches and jacks, go wild
jkratz said:
No, I don't think this would work; this is what I tried to say. I think paralleling the preamp output with the high impedance humbucker output both driving into an amp input would screw things up royally. It would have to be a preamp designed for this purpose and not the generic circuits you see published.
jkratz said:
This is one of those things that's a "whatever turns you on". I prefer a guitar that looks traditional and has a "default" mode where it can be plugged straight into a guitar amp with a mono cord. If you like switches and jacks, go wild
more of the same...
I appreciate your considerations: with all the umpty-ump million distortion stomp-boxes out there, that there's no fairly simple mixing circuit for this kind of application. Here's the challenge: i want to retain normal tone control over the mags (i'll use one knob for that if I have to) but I want both volumes. I'll take two jacks if one will give me traditional passive output (a switching jack will do this by interrupting the signal from the mags to the mixing circuit.) A modicum of tone control over the piezo is nice, and -- hey!
Why don't you like tape piezo? I'll continue to bounce my thinking on the circuit, but you've taken the wind out of my elctronic sails, there, with that one...
I appreciate your considerations: with all the umpty-ump million distortion stomp-boxes out there, that there's no fairly simple mixing circuit for this kind of application. Here's the challenge: i want to retain normal tone control over the mags (i'll use one knob for that if I have to) but I want both volumes. I'll take two jacks if one will give me traditional passive output (a switching jack will do this by interrupting the signal from the mags to the mixing circuit.) A modicum of tone control over the piezo is nice, and -- hey!
Why don't you like tape piezo? I'll continue to bounce my thinking on the circuit, but you've taken the wind out of my elctronic sails, there, with that one...
Re: more of the same...
Simply because its not the way its usually done for electric guitars.
The body sound of a solid electric is likely to be extremely disappointing,
hollowed out sections might improve it somewhat, but it will be very "middy".
Electric guitars like the Parker have individual elements built
into each bridge piece, a level adjustment for each string,
and a buffer amplifier so it can be treated as another pick-up.
As a minimum I'd suggest you need to convert to an acoustic
guitar style bar bridge and install a bar type piezo pick up.
Sorry if my attitude is putting you off, but expectations that
appear to be unrealistic IMO need to be given a hard time.
sreten.
jkratz said:
Simply because its not the way its usually done for electric guitars.
The body sound of a solid electric is likely to be extremely disappointing,
hollowed out sections might improve it somewhat, but it will be very "middy".
Electric guitars like the Parker have individual elements built
into each bridge piece, a level adjustment for each string,
and a buffer amplifier so it can be treated as another pick-up.
As a minimum I'd suggest you need to convert to an acoustic
guitar style bar bridge and install a bar type piezo pick up.
Sorry if my attitude is putting you off, but expectations that
appear to be unrealistic IMO need to be given a hard time.
sreten.Leadbelly, Sreten, and Mr. Darrow:
Actually my wife's eyes would have long since glazed over and she'd have sent me away.
My top is about 1/4" thick carved cedar archtop, with a Leo Quan wraparound tailpiece bolted on to it; enough to vibrate? The folks that sold me the tape say it's more sensetive than a buzzer element. I'm not looking to duplicate the sound of my Taylor, just to add sparkle and shimmer to the mid-heavy humbuckers.
I envision two output jacks at the most. More than four knobs on top looks busy and difficult to negotiate onstage, so I don't want lots of switches, been-there-done-that. So all the magic happens by which jack is plugged into. One jack interrupts the mag output before the on-board mixer to give just that signal down a mono cable. The other jack is after a mixing circuit, and gives a summed (perhaps combined is more accurate) signal, duly buffered and pre-amped and of course, switches the active circuit on when plugged in.
Each of two magnetic pickups routes through a gibson-style selector switch to a passive tone control; three knobs so far. The same Basic Semiconductor Circuits book from Radio Shack has a 2N2222 mic mixer drawing. I thought I might use this to mix the two signals (without the level control for the mags signal, since they're already controlled by their initial passive volume knobs). The JFET circuit from the same book takes the piezo signal and feeds it to the mixer, the level of which is the fourth knob. This is either a single 10K pot for the second input level control, or a stacked pot for a balance-style tandem level control, keeping the schematic intact. 4 knobs, two jacks on the side. Active or passive modes, depending on which you plug into. I'll draw it and post it soon. I haven't tricked out a tone control for the piezo sound, but since it is only there to "add color" to the normal tone or be an onstage special effect, I'm not a concerned for that as for relative ease-of-use and unclutter.
Does my take on the idea at least sound 2/3 thought through and feasible? I have built stuff before from schematics, most of which have worked as advertised, but the brainstorming stage of projects like this one has been a solo trip so far; your indulgent responses are valued. I'm a self-taught hacker at this.
Thanks for the patience. BTW one of my early dogs was an electric violin. Small world.
Actually my wife's eyes would have long since glazed over and she'd have sent me away.
My top is about 1/4" thick carved cedar archtop, with a Leo Quan wraparound tailpiece bolted on to it; enough to vibrate? The folks that sold me the tape say it's more sensetive than a buzzer element. I'm not looking to duplicate the sound of my Taylor, just to add sparkle and shimmer to the mid-heavy humbuckers.
I envision two output jacks at the most. More than four knobs on top looks busy and difficult to negotiate onstage, so I don't want lots of switches, been-there-done-that. So all the magic happens by which jack is plugged into. One jack interrupts the mag output before the on-board mixer to give just that signal down a mono cable. The other jack is after a mixing circuit, and gives a summed (perhaps combined is more accurate) signal, duly buffered and pre-amped and of course, switches the active circuit on when plugged in.
Each of two magnetic pickups routes through a gibson-style selector switch to a passive tone control; three knobs so far. The same Basic Semiconductor Circuits book from Radio Shack has a 2N2222 mic mixer drawing. I thought I might use this to mix the two signals (without the level control for the mags signal, since they're already controlled by their initial passive volume knobs). The JFET circuit from the same book takes the piezo signal and feeds it to the mixer, the level of which is the fourth knob. This is either a single 10K pot for the second input level control, or a stacked pot for a balance-style tandem level control, keeping the schematic intact. 4 knobs, two jacks on the side. Active or passive modes, depending on which you plug into. I'll draw it and post it soon. I haven't tricked out a tone control for the piezo sound, but since it is only there to "add color" to the normal tone or be an onstage special effect, I'm not a concerned for that as for relative ease-of-use and unclutter.
Does my take on the idea at least sound 2/3 thought through and feasible? I have built stuff before from schematics, most of which have worked as advertised, but the brainstorming stage of projects like this one has been a solo trip so far; your indulgent responses are valued. I'm a self-taught hacker at this.
Thanks for the patience. BTW one of my early dogs was an electric violin. Small world.
Re: Done it before
Hi,
Just my 2 cents: Did something similar many years ago. A special bridge was made and I used piezo’s from a kitchen gas lighter. These were 5 mm round and 10 mm long ceramic cylinders. I used one piezo for each snare and each piezo was buffered with a fet source follower. A 9V battery powered the followers. Those piezo’s had a huge output of around 10V. The output was tamed by putting a capacitor in parallel to each piezo. 10 K resistors summed up the output from the source followers.
IHMO piezo’s need to be buffered by a fet. You can control the output of a piezo directly by putting a capacitor (1 nF – 100 nF depending of the capacitance of the piezo) across the piezo directly if its output is too high.
Cheers
PeteMcK said:
Hi,
Just my 2 cents: Did something similar many years ago. A special bridge was made and I used piezo’s from a kitchen gas lighter. These were 5 mm round and 10 mm long ceramic cylinders. I used one piezo for each snare and each piezo was buffered with a fet source follower. A 9V battery powered the followers. Those piezo’s had a huge output of around 10V. The output was tamed by putting a capacitor in parallel to each piezo. 10 K resistors summed up the output from the source followers.
IHMO piezo’s need to be buffered by a fet. You can control the output of a piezo directly by putting a capacitor (1 nF – 100 nF depending of the capacitance of the piezo) across the piezo directly if its output is too high.
Cheers
Stuck in a groove
Hi, all. Just thought that I'd mention that that instrument died of overkill: if I want to sound like an acoustic, I reach for one. If I want to sound like an electric, ditto. But now I have an acoustic bass idea kicking around, and I look for a schematic, and who do I find digging around for circuits, but me a year ago. Like a bad time travel movie...turns out it's almost as easy to find a broken something on eBay and use parts of it as it is to scratch-build it, and philosophically sound from the recycling/stewardship/DIY point-of-view. But as before, thanks for all your trouble.
Now -- into the Wayback machine, Sherman!
Jonathan
Hi, all. Just thought that I'd mention that that instrument died of overkill: if I want to sound like an acoustic, I reach for one. If I want to sound like an electric, ditto. But now I have an acoustic bass idea kicking around, and I look for a schematic, and who do I find digging around for circuits, but me a year ago. Like a bad time travel movie...turns out it's almost as easy to find a broken something on eBay and use parts of it as it is to scratch-build it, and philosophically sound from the recycling/stewardship/DIY point-of-view. But as before, thanks for all your trouble.
Now -- into the Wayback machine, Sherman!
Jonathan
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