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Old 3rd September 2013, 07:10 AM   #1
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Default equipment penyata .

Want to build. High quality true to the source acoustic musical instrument amplifier .
Using a vintage any grated stereo amplifier . I have several apps built in the 70's, 60 to 140 ,,
REAL ! watts .X-2. Oh I mean 10,000 watts . I have two high quality 8" musical instrument speakers 40 oz magnets ? 4 nos celestian G L 12 35 can I make something really special . I would like to use a 2 or four track mixer , with effects but I also have two Electronix pedals basically I want two people to be able to play and sing . and possibly have 12 inch extension speakers . some have said I should go ahead and use get home stereo speakers with meds and tweets . I'm not sure I see the advantage in that . I would like for this to weigh less than a thousand pounds. if I built this I want it to be the equivalent of a top of the line . acoustic amplifier . if not I'll just go buy a $300 and up and forget about it . Could it also double as a PA system with another amp I have also heard that for subs car stereo amps and speakers are cheap ,and good quality . I would need power supplies but I never would really be able to run electric guitars through the system right . just microphones and true to the source pickups .could I play electric guitars that are Miked from there amp what about, suppression impedance transformer . if I do this build a really nice tweed case for it I have plugged my acoustic guitar into an old 10 Sony amplifier without changing the impedance and it sounded pretty good . using an 8 inch three way home speaker . ? so many questions ,sorry , one more thing a buddy of mine owns a recording studio and he said I was an idiot and it couldn't be done , and that new equipment is much superior to vintage . Hahaha he's young lol
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Old 3rd September 2013, 07:56 AM   #2
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Default vintage audio integrated amplifier ,and acoustic guitar amplifiers

Can it be done. is it a good idea , I have a lot of good equipment setting around home audio & musical instrument speakers
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Old 3rd September 2013, 08:09 AM   #3
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Can what be done?
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Old 3rd September 2013, 08:35 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by chip23 View Post
one more thing a buddy of mine owns a recording studio and he said I was an idiot and it couldn't be done , and that new equipment is much superior to vintage . Hahaha he's young lol
He's also probably right

Most of what you posted makes no sense, and the lack of punctuation and sentencing makes it all but unreadable.

I don't know who told you that in-car gear is any good was, but he's completely wrong - in-car amps and speakers are mostly pretty crap, and totally unsuitable for guitar or PA use (or even home HiFi use). They also have incredibly imaginary power levels, a '1000W' car amp is unlikely to even be a 100W amplifier.

If you want to use an antique classic amp for guitar, the Leak Stereo 70 was often used for exactly that, and for PA systems as well - Quad (Acoustic Manufacturing Co.) systems were pretty good as well.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 10:28 AM   #5
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An acoustic amplification system in that scale is a small PA system. Or sometimes, not all that small. And yes, I think tweeters for clarity and directivity in the high frequencies are important for the overall sound, having started in the sixties when they were rare, and discovered how much of a difference they could make.

No, I wouldn't start from a HiFi mentality. While economically interesting, mass market construction techniques do not lend their drivers the solidity to be lugged around and dropped, nor run at maximum rated power hour after hour and cabinets tend to be held together with staples and hope. Studio drivers have the stamina for long-term cooking, but many of the fragilities of the HiFi – magnets decentering under shock, low resonance voice coils hammering against the end of the gap.

Musical instrument speakers are generally designed less linear, with a less flat frequency response (and that's being polite to them). Not only is a particular sound tolerated, it's sought after – which makes them less accurate as part of an acoustic amplification system, and likely to have resonances which increase the risk of feedback. Furthermore, nobody seems to care what their directional characteristics are, which seriously complicates covering a largish hall.

PA drivers have been built for that. They're not better than other speakers, they're just better adapted for the job. And that is the job you're asking for. They might, dB for dB, be a bit more expensive than speakers designed for less rigorous conditions, but they're much more likely to give satisfaction, and go on giving it for years.

If you want lightweight, modern is the way to go. Switch mode power supplies (ugh) class D amplification, neodynium magnets, stressed foam cabinets… I'm not saying these sound better than older solutions, but they definitely weigh less.

Don't ever judge by watts alone. We once did two successive stadia, about the same size. Since we couldn't derig between concerts we left the 135k component system to be taken down by local union crews, and hired a 250k integrated box system for the second. The physically more powerful rig was not a subjectively loud, nor as punchy. What with different efficiencies, losses due to sound going where you don't need it and purely subjective details just increasing power doesn't increase loudness.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 07:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
Most of what you posted makes no sense,
I agree, but since there is no details in the OP page, I will guess that maybe English is not his native language. Even so, there are a lot of words but it is not even remotely clear what he wants. An amp for an acoustic guitar and a microphone. OK, how loud, how will it be powered, and what are the cost, size and weight constraints?

Quote:
Using a vintage any grated stereo amplifier
OK, an integrated stereo amp from the 70's that made 60 to 140 REAL watts, would have been rare. Most of the new stuff sold in the 70's was solid state. When I left the stereo store in 1973 the biggest INTEGRATED amp was the 65WPC AR receiver. The Fisher 500TX was 50 WPC. By the end of the 70's there were BIG power component systems from Carver, Phase Linear and others but they weren't integrated. Despite warnings from Carver not to do so, playing my guitar through the Carver M400 into a pair of Cerwin Vega's sounded pretty good.

Quote:
if I built this I want it to be the equivalent of a top of the line . acoustic amplifier . if not I'll just go buy a $300 and up and forget about it
If you can buy what you want for $300, just do it. The Carver M400, Phase Linear 4000, Cerwin Vega stereo system cost a couple grand back in 1978. Building anything remotely equivalent today would be similar.

First, you need to figure out what you really want. When I used to build custom guitar amps, I would drag the prospective buyer to Ace Music, Sam Ash, or the Guitar Center to play. Test your guitar and mic through several amps, maybe every amp in the whole store, figure out what you want. If you see EXACTLY what you want, write down the model number and the price for future reference. If not, remember which features, sounds, and important things come from which amp. And remember which amp is CLOSEST to your ideal amp, and its price.

So, maybe you like the sound from one amp, the volume from another amp, and the EQ from a third. Google everything you can about all three. Maybe you can get lucky and find schematics.

Remember this. An amp designed exclusively for acoustic guitar will NOT have a flat frequency response, neither will the speakers. An acoustic guitar amp accentuates the upper midrange and rolls off the low end. The really good ones have an EQ, and possibly a flat channel for a mic. Look at these Trace Eliots. They are not cheap, WELL ABOVE $300.

Trace Elliot

The speakers from these amps have been on clearance at Parts Express for about $12 each. I got 4 made a small stack with boxes designed for a fairly flat response from 80 Hz to 6 KHz. They do sound great for acoustic guitar, OK with a mic, but screechingly annoying with an electric guitar. You could power these with a class D chip amp and a laptop power supply, and possibly make something useful for $300. The little speakers and laptop power supply will limit you to about 106 db SPL. The sound level per $$$ curve in nearly exponential....how much "loud" do you want.

Quote:
he said I was an idiot and it couldn't be done
I am building a "jack of all trades" amp. I want to use it for (in order of priority) electric guitar, bass guitar, keyboards, vocals and DJing. To pass the bass guitar, keys and DJ requirements I need to go down to 40 Hz. The keys, bass and DJ requirement dictate a relatively flat response, and HF extension beyond 12KHz, ideally to 15. I also want it to be portable so that a 60+ year old guy (me) can carry it. There are already conflicting requirements. I want LOUD, 120 db SPL, yes another conflicting requirement. My user name says it all, yes, tubes! Now you think I'm the idiot.

Well, maybe.....but I have clearly defined what I want, and I have put together a plan to get there. It will be built in stages, and it won't be cheap. The transformers for one of the tube amps cost over $300.

The single biggest piece will be the bass cabinet, containing one 15 inch pro audio speaker rated for 500 watts. At first there will be one cabinet fed with 400 watt tube amp. A second set can be built if needed. Each cabinet simulates to 119 db SPL at 125 watts. It hits X-max at 40 Hz with 400 watts and 124 db SPL.

There will be a pair of small cabinets containing a pair of 6 inch pro audio PA speakers and a high power bullet tweeter. These are tuned to play flat down to 80Hz with 75 watts per cabinet (X-max limited). A stereo tube amp limited to 75 WPC will feed them. The stereo amp and pair of small cabinets can be used for guitar by themselves.

The same tube amp will make 150 WPC when operated above 200Hz and 125 WPC at 40 Hz (unlimited). The cabinets simulate to 116 db SPL at 125 watts, and there will be two of them. The amp can run the bass box on one channel, and both small cabinets on the other channel for an SPL around 118 db.

These cabinets and stereo amp are being built now. All amps, crossover, mixers, processor and rack mounted PC, go in the guitar rack.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 07:54 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by tubelab.com View Post
OK, an integrated stereo amp from the 70's that made 60 to 140 REAL watts, would have been rare. Most of the new stuff sold in the 70's was solid state. When I left the stereo store in 1973 the biggest INTEGRATED amp was the 65WPC AR receiver. The Fisher 500TX was 50 WPC.
Well the Leak I mentioned above was 35W RMS per channel in 8 ohms, and over 50W in to 4 ohms. The Quad 303 power amp (of the same period) was 45W RMS per channel in to 8 ohms (not sure if it could feed 4 ohms or not?).

These were also 'proper' RMS watts, with both both channels driven, and low distortion across the full frequency range.

So decent powers from high quality solid state amps weren't particularly 'rare' in the UK back in the early 70's/late 60's.

As I also mentioned, I've seen both used for PA on many occasions, and the Leak used as a guitar amp many times.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 10:13 PM   #8
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Default amp

I think the first part of my post must be missing. it was entitled electronics pinata . using high quality vintage home stereo equipment , to build a true to the source acoustic guitar amplifier, combo PA , four inputs two guitars to Mics? looking for high quality .
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Old 3rd September 2013, 10:23 PM   #9
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looks like you accidentally opened two threads

they are now merged

may look a bit messy now, but hope it's still ok


moderation
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Old 4th September 2013, 12:36 AM   #10
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Default dealing with the thought that there might still be things for you to learn

by that do you mean I shouldn't be sitting here feeling bad , about comments like English must not be my primary language . I have a smartphone with a very small screen that's all. I cannot get my cursor to go where I needed to make corrections on this site for some reason . the first comment was particularly hurtful.

I constantly preach to younger people , that today's equipment is rated in make believe fantasy wattage . not even half truth . very close to lying . rated in a very narrow frequency range. next there are high end very powerful very clean car stereo amps . those are generally rated in real wattage . because it is mass produced it is miuch less expensive the man who runs the local stereo store and works on vintage amplifiers that require two people to carry ,and crossover networks that are heavier than some speakers .is where I get my ideas and he's no idiot . the only amp I own with a black face is a Yamaha R 9 its a good amplifier and bench test above its printed wattage . you know wide open on a dead load for 12 hours hours . I own the last and best tube amplifier Sansui made . I know some of you you will think because it's not a Scott Shurewood or Marantz , it must be junk , have you ever bench tested .

One. Every integrated amplifier I own will bench test above its advertised wattage full spectrum, full load . as far as I know forever . I hope you have enough humor to understand when someone is being facetious . My main set of speakers is an 8 foot tall set of Acoustats. regardless of whether you agree I have read reports that say " except for being somewhat directional ,they are as close as you can come to wearing a set of electrostatic.headphones to explain he was saying it was the best sound reproduction he ever heard . because the old stereo amplifiers ar so sturdy ,so true to the source . and we'll run at full volume and never over heat . I was hoping that I could build , a very high quality , acoustic instrument amplifier which of course also be used with a keyboard , I did not ever say anything about plug in electric guitar into it . an acoustic guitar amplifier runs between four and nine thousand dollars . I have gone back and made as many corrections as I'm going to make it as it is almost impossible . I only read the first two responses , that was all I needed to feel like somebody kicked me in the stomach . I deal with a serious mental illness , I was hoping this might be a way to take my mind off things ,because I'm being monitored I have not told you what I really wanted to say . but since you jumped on my comment I feel sad for you that you have nothing better to do than to set on this side and jump on green P's . dear monitors please respect that what is good for the goose is good for the gander . again I have only read the first two,
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