Does this amp consume >75W of real power? - Page 3 - diyAudio
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Old 26th October 2011, 07:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewT View Post
The two posters care.
I care.
Can I assume from your question that you don't care?
Yes you can
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Old 26th October 2011, 09:46 PM   #22
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http://www.tdipower.com/PDF/white_paper/TW0062.pdf

..page 8 of the following shows that Audio equipment is "Class A" equipment and included in EN61000-3-2 regulations on power factor.

....regarding the ripple current situation in the capacitors of 50Hz transformer based PSU's.......

...I am convinced that you will agree with me that the ripple current in the electrolytics in a 50Hz trafo-type supply will be far higher than in an equivalent power power-factor-corrected supply.

..so in the microwave oven with the 50Hz trafo based PSU that was described earlier.........the electrolytics must either be special low ESR ones, or their lifetime will be compromised.

You dont have to experiment to see how high the ripple current is in a 50Hz trafo based PSU.....just set it up on the LTspice free simulator and see for yourself.

.......and the problem with High power 50Hz PSU's, is that if you add enough electrolytic capacitance in parallel to get under the capacitor ripple current specification, then you violate mains harmonic current limits. (the limits are shown on page 8 of the above article)

PFC is mandatory for all PSU's above 75W that connect to the mains virtually anywhere in the world.....there are absolutely no exceptions

The Audio Power supplys that don't use PFC are breaking the Law.

For lighting, Power Factor correction is mandatory for anything above 25W that connects to the mains.
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Old 26th October 2011, 10:56 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by eem2am View Post

PFC is mandatory for all PSU's above 75W that connect to the mains virtually anywhere in the world.....there are absolutely no exceptions
And you have anything to back this up with? Can you please show where in Canada this is so?

Quote:
The Audio Power supplys that don't use PFC are breaking the Law.

For lighting, Power Factor correction is mandatory for anything above 25W that connects to the mains.
Never heard this one either.
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Old 27th October 2011, 08:39 AM   #24
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USA and Canada governments have fully bought in to pretty much all of these electrical regulations....

lets face it, they have to because otherwise they'd be out of touch with the rest of the world, and wouldnt be able to sell products which the rest of the world would want.

.....Because of the 115VAC mains in USA.....currents are much higher , and so PFC becomes even more imprtant anyway.

Also, all the major semiconductor manufacturers in the USA (ti, National, Fairchildsemi etc) have huge production lines for acive power factor correction integrated circuits.

The USA actually leads the setting of "green" standards such as standby regulations....particularly the state of California which has its own hyped up standards.

Ive only seen standards docs at workplaces, ........its actually extremely difficult to find out, for example, where you could buy a copy of the EN61000 regulations.

....EN standards are European, but tend to be same as US equivalent etc
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Old 27th October 2011, 09:22 AM   #25
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[QUOTE=eem2am;2759730PFC is mandatory for all PSU's above 75W that connect to the mains virtually anywhere in the world.....there are absolutely no exceptions
[/QUOTE]

So YOU claim - but it looks like all the manufacturers, and probably everyone else, disagree with you.
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Old 27th October 2011, 11:01 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by eem2am View Post
USA and Canada governments have fully bought in to pretty much all of these electrical regulations....

lets face it, they have to because otherwise they'd be out of touch with the rest of the world, and wouldnt be able to sell products which the rest of the world would want.

.....Because of the 115VAC mains in USA.....currents are much higher , and so PFC becomes even more imprtant anyway.

Also, all the major semiconductor manufacturers in the USA (ti, National, Fairchildsemi etc) have huge production lines for acive power factor correction integrated circuits.

The USA actually leads the setting of "green" standards such as standby regulations....particularly the state of California which has its own hyped up standards.

Ive only seen standards docs at workplaces, ........its actually extremely difficult to find out, for example, where you could buy a copy of the EN61000 regulations.

....EN standards are European, but tend to be same as US equivalent etc
Why would it be extremely difficult to find out if everyone was on the bandwagon? You would think it was no secret if they wanted manufacturers to comply.
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Old 27th October 2011, 12:16 PM   #27
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http://www.powerphysics.com/lab-note...ction-pfc.html

And a long thread here
Electrical/Electronic engineering other topics - Why have Active PFC in Audio SMPS?

Both states that <600 Watt do not require PFC for audio use.

Last edited by Kjeldsen; 27th October 2011 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 27th October 2011, 01:29 PM   #28
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Kjeldsen....the eng-tips thread confirms that PFC is required.

Printer2:
The authorities that set the standards, are very close to the Test Labs that actually test products to check for compliance.
.......they dont particularly want companies to know what the standards exactly are.......that way, companies make mistakes, and have to modify their products and get them re-tested.......

...and yes, you've guessed it....They charge you lots of lovely lucre to test your product.......and when you have to get it re-tested because the first time round you werent clear what the standards actually were......you have to pay another load of money to them.

So money, as expected, comes into it, and the standards are very hard to find, and very hard to understand once you have found them......

as a result , you make mistakes , and end up paying out lots of money to them.
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Old 27th October 2011, 01:51 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by eem2am View Post
Kjeldsen....the eng-tips thread confirms that PFC is required.
That thread confirms that some people think it is, and some people think it isn't.

The over link posted suggests over 600W amplifiers, but then says "* The actual specification is for harmonic content and you have to calculate the amplifier power" - which is pretty vague?.

Neither of these are of course in any way official statements, just personal opinions.

The PowerPhysics site also suggests that high power audio amplifiers without PFC will blow the circuit protectors - yet in all the decades of high power audio amplifiers this has never happened?. Non-PFC 2000W RMS amplifiers (both SMPS and linear) are common place, yet don't blow circuit breakers.

EDIT: What a shock - I see PowerPhysics sell PFC amplifiers, presumably that's why they are making unfounded claims?.
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Old 27th October 2011, 01:53 PM   #30
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[QUOTE=eem2am;2760415]Kjeldsen....the eng-tips thread confirms that PFC is required.

Yes, but it's not rated power that determines if PFC is needed or not.

The link clearly states that it's hard to read this from the regulations, but that its common to anticipate that avg. power consumption is 1/8 of the rated power, and thats why the practical limit is 600 watt for audio amplifiers 600 watt/8 = 75 watt
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