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Old 16th June 2011, 05:00 PM   #131
TheGimp is offline TheGimp  United States
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What I was thinking was along the lines that heavy metal players tend to turn up their output on the guitar as well as the amp. And they tend to hit the strings harder, all resulting in a significant increase in output compared to lead or jazz.

So the differnce in playing style is accompanied by differences in drive to the amp.

In addition, there are differences in chord usage vs note playing which would effect harmonic and intermodulation content.

No?
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Old 16th June 2011, 05:03 PM   #132
M Gregg is offline M Gregg  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGimp View Post
What I was thinking was along the lines that heavy metal players tend to turn up their output on the guitar as well as the amp. And they tend to hit the strings harder, all resulting in a significant increase in output compared to lead or jazz.

So the differnce in playing style is accompanied by differences in drive to the amp.

In addition, there are differences in chord usage vs note playing which would effect harmonic and intermodulation content.

No?
Yes you are correct minor 7th's and power cords are different etc. However you would need a recording of the expected sound as heard by the player to test.ie compare to the sound from the project with the signal going in of clean guitar. I guess you could then listen to the recorded sound of each project amp with each sample as adjusted to get the "best" sound compared to the original.

I know you wont get a Fender/ Marshall sound, however its a fixed reference point. Then again someone might..LOL

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Old 16th June 2011, 05:58 PM   #133
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Okay My 2 cents worth on power supplies. In a guitar amplifier the power supply needs to sag under load for the folks who like to turn up the gain so high that when they turn around and face the amp stack it feeds back and squeals! The sag in power supply acts as a compressor and allows then to play the feedback!

I have found my output pentodes. They should allow me to get similar distortions to the common power pentodes used in normal guitar amplifiers but these run at lower voltage and put out 2 watts when pushed. They will drive a standard 70V speaker to line transformer very nicely. So at under $4.00 ea N.O.S. my output stage including sockets is under $15!
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Old 16th June 2011, 06:03 PM   #134
M Gregg is offline M Gregg  United Kingdom
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Just for interest,

Mini amps

Vox AC4 Vs Orange

YouTube - ‪Vox AC4 vs Orange Tiny Terror. Comparison. Great audio!‬‏

http://wn.com/Vox_AC4_vs_Orange_Tiny...on_Great_audio! <<<try track 13# Hideaway how does it compare with track 12

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M. Gregg
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What is the sound of one hand clapping?

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Old 16th June 2011, 06:18 PM   #135
ChrisA is offline ChrisA  United States
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Originally Posted by sprinter View Post
ChrisA, the rules apparently do not address speakers, so I see no reason not to use the speaker that shows off the amp the best. If a 12" Legend makes your amp sound great, go for it, IMO. The idea is still good sound, after all. As TubeLab pointed out, there will be a practical limit to size, but if a 12" Eminence works, do it. You'll probably need the whole 5 watts, of course...

I'm shocked, shocked, I say.

I've never looked into the Champ 600 before. It looks nice and it looks like a good mod candidate. What is really impressive it that it goes up to 12! That's one louder than 11! Hmm, just how big a speaker can you cram into that thing anyway?
I'll describe is amp in some detail because it's very good at what it does and retails for $149 and that INCLUDES the cabinet, speaker silk screened front panel and some profit for both the reseller and Fender. I think one could build a Champ 600 clone $100. I don't think it cost Fender $100 to built it

You might be able to cram in an 8" speaker. I've seen it done but it is tight. It comes with a "Fender" brand 6" that might be built by Jenson. I installed a switching jack so if I plug in a speaker cable it disconnects the built in speaker. So I set the Champ on top on a 1x12 cab. For home use the Champ on a 1x12 goes up loud enough to be heard outdoors if playing in the living room. It is a "Fender clean tone" amp. If you want "crunch" you need an overdrive pedal or at least my Strat needs one. perhaps a Gibson with a humbucker could over drive the amp? I built a tube based overdrive "pedal" and with that I can get a Ritchie Blackmore "Smoke on the Water" tone that is fun to play for all of 3 minutes

The Champ 600 is easy worth $149 just counting the cost of the parts inside. It is built in a PCB but it is a very low density layout with large size axial lead components and wide PCB traces. Circuit is dead simple, two 12AX7 gain stages with TMB tone stack between but no pots, they used fix resisters but still the same TMB topology. Then the last grain stage to a volume control then a single ended 6V6 (metal envelope) power tube. The OPT is small but surprisingly the bass from the low open E string is strong. The cabinet is heavy MDF with tolex covering. There is some hum and noise if you turn it up. Some day "ill replace a resistor in the power supply with a 9H choke to address hum and re-work the heaters. but I use it as a practice amp and at those low volume setting the hum/noise is very low.

If you were looking to win this competition a Fender Champ clone with cab and speaker built for under $100, might pull a lot of votes. It would not be hard. Webber sells speakers like the one inside the Champ 600 for $25 each and a cab built from Home Depot #2 pine adds all of about $3 to the price.
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Old 16th June 2011, 06:32 PM   #136
Trout is offline Trout  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGimp View Post
What I was thinking was along the lines that heavy metal players tend to turn up their output on the guitar as well as the amp. And they tend to hit the strings harder, all resulting in a significant increase in output compared to lead or jazz.

So the differnce in playing style is accompanied by differences in drive to the amp.

In addition, there are differences in chord usage vs note playing which would effect harmonic and intermodulation content.

No?

My experience is that there is no correlation to how hard strings are hit and music genre.
Many metal plays are simply hot fast noise boys that are either slamming or speed & or sweep picking. Tapping & sweep pickers actually tend to have a light touch, lots of finesse. Same Genre, entirely different style.

Now SRV for instance, Blues/Rock, big fat strings, and he is really digging in on notes.
Some of the best acoustic work (or my favorites) those guys really dig in as well. Guys like Tommy Emmanuel routinely keep strings at the edge of failure.

Several boutique and replica amp vendors use a recorded chip to do exactly as suggested.
Input the same clip into multiple amps to show the basic differences in sound.
A good example of this is with Clark Tweed Amps, Listen to the clip of the Webster, then listen to the clip of the Beaufort.

Clark Webster
Clark Beaufort

Same clip, but obvious differences are present.

The universal clip idea though valid does have its virtues, but it also has another problem,
Input Reproduced sound then recorded & reproduced again. A lot can be lost Vs actually sitting there with an amp.

My old Saying/Joke, I do not need to sound good, I have (insert favorite software here) to eq, edit and master.

Funny but true.

I sold an amp I built to a lad a few years back, He bought it based on the clip he heard in my listing.
Recorded completely dry, flat/neutral eq's, guitar to amp, sm57 mic
Dimed Champish circuit, Stones- Cant you her me knocking.

about a week after he got it I get an email along the lines of I can not get the song to sound like the recording. Its distorted enough, but the tone is just weird. I think somethings wrong with the amp or speaker.

After a couple emails something occurred to me, He did not know how that tune was played. I sent him instructions on open G tuning. A few days later he responded back with a clip, Nailed it!

Quote:
tubelab.com-Tracking shows it went from Tempe to Phoenix to San Diego to Ontario CA it is now in Portland Oregon. They claim it will be delivered here in Ft. Lauderdale Florida tomorrow!
CE is fast with UPS 3day service, I ordered my stuff Monday and its scheduled to be here by the end of business today;
Tempe, AZ -Phoenix, AZ
Phoenix, AZ-Albuquerque, NM
Albuquerque, NM-Louisville, KY
Louisville, KY-Chicago, IL
Chicago, IL-Hodgkins, IL
Hodgkins, IL-Dekalb, IL
Out For Delivery

The judging based on audio clips should be a very small percentage of the challenge, it is far to subjective, and there are enough variables that it pretty much makes in impractical.

I look at this as a resource thread, already a great list of vendors & sources have appeared and it clearly shows that the "under $100.00" parts aspect can be achieved.

Now its the creative design aspect that should really be interesting.
Tubes not commonly seen in guitar amps are about to become valid contenders as well new and unusual twists on age old designs.

Some are going minimalistic and others? Possibly 5 tubes George? WOW!



At least this will not turn into another Epiphone Valve Junior Mod Thread. I remember when those first came out, so cheap that even if you blew it up it was a fun mod platform.
You can still buy those(heads) all day long on ebay for under $129.00
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Old 16th June 2011, 06:48 PM   #137
PB2 is offline PB2  United States
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I don't think there should be a max power limit, if someone can do 15W and meet the budget why not? One can trade off features for power.
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Old 16th June 2011, 06:58 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
I think one could build a Champ 600 clone $100.
I just priced out the components, including transformers, tubes, sockets, resistors, capacitors, jacks, switch, volume pot, power jack, fuse holder, etc. to build a copy of the Fender 5F1 circuit. Not including the chassis, cabinet, or speakers, the cost is about $150.00. The transformers were sourced from Triode USA which seem to be the least expensive.

This is not based on "quantity" pricing. If I am missing something please help me out here. I did not price out the Fender 600. Maybe the cost savings is because the 600 uses a solid state power supply? I'm not seeing it.
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Old 16th June 2011, 07:02 PM   #139
ChrisA is offline ChrisA  United States
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Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
Okay My 2 cents worth on power supplies. In a guitar amplifier the power supply needs to sag under load
"Sag" only matters on a push pull class AB amp. On the smaller single ended amps, maybe the kind built for this contest these would be running in Class A. A Class A amp actually draws more current when the input is muted.

If you are trying to go for the $100 budget, single ended is atractive because there is only one output tube. If you go that route "sag" is a non-issue.
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Old 16th June 2011, 07:09 PM   #140
ChrisA is offline ChrisA  United States
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Originally Posted by scitizen17 View Post
This is not based on "quantity" pricing. If I am missing something please help me out here. I did not price out the Fender 600. Maybe the cost savings is because the 600 uses a solid state power supply? I'm not seeing it.
Yes, the "600" uses two 5 cent rectifier diodes. I'd go with a chassis made from a cookie baking sheet from the 99 cent store. Check out "musical power supplies" for output transformers. Power transformers hard to find at low cost. Maybe back to back heater tranformers?

Shipping is the killer for building just one amp. it's easy to pay $6 to ship $5 worth of parts but if you order $100 in parts the shipping is free. Lilely you could build 20 champs for under $2,000
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