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Old 2nd February 2011, 09:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTF671 View Post
A bigger OT will provide a cleaner responsiveness overall. It can even be oversized to provide even more effect.
This is true, but most guitar amps are built with undersized power and output transformers. Beefing up these components will produce a result closer to a hi-fi amp. Since most people choose a tube amp for guitar because of their characteristic colour, I would be cautious about stepping too far away from the original specs. You may want a clean tone for jazz, but I would think your best bet is to try and get to play some different flavours of early Fenders and then try to build something close to the one you like best.

w
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Old 2nd February 2011, 09:32 PM   #12
RTF671 is offline RTF671  United States
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I would stick to power spec not undersized. 45w OT for a 45w amp. If you overside the OT the power section will still overdrive at max power and an appropriate OT would produce some nice tones
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Old 2nd February 2011, 10:00 PM   #13
OneyedK is offline OneyedK  Belgium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wakibaki View Post
This is true, but most guitar amps are built with undersized power and output transformers.
Trye, but the reason is economical, not tone.
They simply use as cheap as possible components.
(this is actually getting worse with new amps!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakibaki View Post
Beefing up these components will produce a result closer to a hi-fi amp.
Sorry, but this is simply untrue. Try it.
(Marshall did it with the bassman, and you know where that ended )
Besides, if it were true - and again, it's not, just don't use hifi transformers - the folks at Mercury Magnetics and Weber would have to close up shop real fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakibaki View Post
Since most people choose a tube amp for guitar because of their characteristic colour, I would be cautious about stepping too far away from the original specs. You may want a clean tone for jazz, but I would think your best bet is to try and get to play some different flavours of early Fenders and then try to build something close to the one you like best.
An early Fender consists of components with crazy tolerance, transformers of different makes and sizes and different speakers, most of them no longer available. It's impossible to copy the very tone of one specific Fender. The only thing you can do is buy it. And when it needs service, try to stick to the original values.

But this is a new build, so imho, it's best to choose a circuit that can produce the sound/tone you are after, and fine tune it to preference.
It's a delicate balance between odd and even distortion (and I don't mean with the volume turned to 11) that makes a tone fit for jazz, metal, blues, rock or heavy rock...
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Old 2nd February 2011, 10:03 PM   #14
OneyedK is offline OneyedK  Belgium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTF671 View Post
I would stick to power spec not undersized. 45w OT for a 45w amp.
Depending on the quality of the OT, this might be enough.
But if it's not, you end up with those dreaded ghost notes.
Some kinds of music can take it, jazz can't, as it makes the player
sound inaccurate...
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Old 2nd February 2011, 10:34 PM   #15
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I suggest you read this series of articles by Hartley Peavey: Peavey.com with particular attention to page 4 of Chapter 3: Transtube.

w

Last edited by wakibaki; 2nd February 2011 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 2nd February 2011, 11:28 PM   #16
OneyedK is offline OneyedK  Belgium
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What he says is true BUT, it's not because you choose an OT with say twice the power needed that the magnetising curve suddenly becomes linear.

Hence what I recommended, and I'll quote myself:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneyedK View Post
And the most important thing is the output transformer. Since higher frquencies are less important to a jazz player (you would end up turning the treble completely counterclockwise), the best way to go is a relatively cheap oversized transformer. 2-4 times the expected power of the amp.
Someting like the Hammond 1750NA (they say it's a Marshall replacement, but who cares) or an Edcor XPP25-8-7.6K
Once you get to know the effect on tone from an undersized OT, you don't want to go there anymore.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 01:34 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneyedK View Post
What he says is true...


Quote:
Originally Posted by OneyedK View Post
...it's not because you choose an OT with say twice the power needed that the magnetising curve suddenly becomes linear.
Read the article properly. You will see that the desired effect is due to saturation, which has everything to do with not having excess power handling.

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Originally Posted by OneyedK View Post
Once you get to know the effect on tone from an undersized OT, you don't want to go there anymore.
This sounds like the voice of experience, but my 45+ years of playing guitar and building electronics tell me that you just made it up.

w

I recommend that the OP read those articles before taking anything you say too seriously. It's a beginners mistake to build a tube guitar amp with oversized transformers. Sure, it sounds like a good idea, but many things in electronics, particularly audio, are non-intuitive.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 03:01 AM   #18
RTF671 is offline RTF671  United States
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Personally I like the sound of saturation. But it is up to the poster with what he wants to go with. He could go with a big OT but I wouldn't. I don't particularly ascribe to too much audio voodoo but I understand what my designs will produce.

I do agree with Peavey along the lines of things that are good for guitar are bad designs. Like for example DC coupled cathode followers.

He could use the bigger transformer if he wanted crystal clean output but then again most transistorized amps produce nice cleans. A good transformer will most of the time not be running close to saturation under normal (and tolerable) listening conditions.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 10:18 AM   #19
OneyedK is offline OneyedK  Belgium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wakibaki View Post
This sounds like the voice of experience, but my 45+ years of playing guitar and building electronics tell me that you just made it up.

I recommend that the OP read those articles before taking anything you say too seriously. It's a beginners mistake to build a tube guitar amp with oversized transformers. Sure, it sounds like a good idea, but many things in electronics, particularly audio, are non-intuitive.
Two particularly nasty comments towards me, but I will happily ignore them, because you cannot know how much experience I have and what it's worth.
But choosing the right transformer is no beginners thing

I absolutely agree that the OP should read up on all articles regarding amplifier design.

Let's stay constructive and on topic for now, feel free to pm me.
I recommended
Hammond 1750NA or
Edcor XPP25-8-7.6k
output transformers. Wich I have both used as a Fender replacement.
(I won't use Edcor anymore, because it took very long to arrive and customs fee was pretty heavy)

What do you recommend?

Furthermore, I recommended a loaded 5E3 board from turretboards, because it's more than decent quality and it's a solid base to start from.
(again, I used on of their boards before - bassman-)

What do you recommend?
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Old 3rd February 2011, 06:32 PM   #20
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Glowing Plates- I have been down this path and here's what I exp'd with 5E3. I started a few years ago when my Mesa died and rather than shell out near half its value to ship and repair, I decided to learn for hobby, and get and amp I could repair/mod myself. That began the odyssey that-like so many others find-lead into a fun fascinating hobby.

I have a homebuild that I have done many different circuits in using el84s and 6V6-which tube I now use exclusively. The 2 times I have gone the 5E3 have both led away again to ciscuits better suited to modern p/u's. The history of the 5E3 is important point to bear in mind-an economical simple amp that will allow a low bucks entry into electric guitar. In that vein it is classic. But also the guitar it was taylored to is the Tele with low power single coils, then maybe the strat could work too, but most moved on to the fixed bias Fenders as that became the popular sound. Also from what I gather getting the speaker quality correct is very important too for the 5E3 tweed to be successful, and that is likely why I did not get too good of result.

Reading 5E3 threads around-manymany at TDPRI- you find most new builders coming back to ask how to get the bassy flub under control-and esp problematic w/ h/b's. I did what everyone else does-1-5uf bias caps, .011-.022-.047 coupling caps. etc etc. Then works decent with single coils, but not much range of versatility. I have always ended back to some sort of VTB or VTBM tonestack, and cathode biased 6v6's. My current fav iteration is :

Single triode 12ax7 - VTB t.s. - parallel 12ax7/5751 - MV - LTP pi - CutControl - cath bias 6V6's @ 330v on plates and screens. Very rich and harmonic, adjustable to many tones from plexi-ish to compressed bluesy and soft mellow jazz. Tolerates h/b's very well as I use 1-5uf bias caps and lower value couplings. 1x10 and 1x12 speaker combo.

That is my journey as a newb amp maker. Much depends on the guitar&p/u,s and your playing style for sure. We can adapt our technique much to get used to a different type amp, so that is a factor also.
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