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Old 22nd March 2013, 02:00 PM   #51
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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oh nos, more troubling, meaningful, well argued and in depth inference like yours? how could he possibly cope...

you better watch it Owen, vague assertions like these ruin careers...

get a grip counter culture, i'm not even sure you know what your weak point is and you have completely avoided the questions, thus we can presume you concede all these points. you have only illustrated that you either have a very poor command of the English language, or are deliberately trolling.

you seem to be having great difficulty with the concept... Owen is simply stating that he does not have iron clad answers to all of these and he_most likely unlike_you, has made serious efforts to find these boundaries for himself and knows how difficult proper testing of this nature is. thus he cannot and will not rule out 100% what he does not know 100% based on the trials he involved himself with, let alone place a definite (and somewhat low) ceiling on the perceptive powers of all the people; everywhere, with little or no personal experience of such testing methods; which seems your preferred position....

its perfectly reasonable and honest, as opposed to ruling something out 100% based on preconceptions and bias based on other peoples research, albeit 'objective' preconceptions and bias

all he can do is do the very best he can, without imposing personal limits on what is 'good enough' of course this still more than qualifies as 'good enough'. This removes even the subjective and less than certain judgement of what is 'good enough' altogether.

Last edited by qusp; 22nd March 2013 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 03:19 PM   #52
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I's like to comment on the issue of reader inference. Clear communication is a two sided activity. It invloves the clarity, specificity, and context of information provided by the writer, but also, as was suggested by Shaman, the reading comprehension, biases, etc. of the reciever. The possibility of mis-communication is aways present, especially is this sort of casual forum. Our various contemporaneous comments and postings here are necessarily brief, sometimes even mysterious. For many here, english is not their first language. I suggest, therefore, that no one should expect peer review, or even article grade grade commentary.

Should anyone finds some particular comment unclear, then they should seek clarification from the writer, with their mind open to the possibility that they are mistaken in their initially inferred. That's easy enough, isn't it? I find the notion that it's fully incumbent on the writer to ensure there's no possibility for mistaken inference impractical, perhaps, impossible. An online forum such as this enables nearly real-time dialog for obtaining any desired additional information. The threat that comments which are not written so as to preclude any possibility of mistaken inferences by readers will be pounced on with criticism strikes me as not constructive, at best.
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Old 15th September 2013, 05:35 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opc View Post
Hi MHOE,

I've got an ES9012 based DAC in the works that will also measure quite a bit better than the ODAC, but it's probably another few months off.

Regards,
Owen
Wondering if it's already finished?

Sorry for bumping this thread, btw
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Old 16th September 2013, 01:32 AM   #54
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No need to be particularly sorry, it's an entertaining read.

What NwAvGuy did was showing that verification of performance is a key factor in getting the most from your parts. Which essentially equates to negative feedback during development. It is also the part that most DIYers struggle with for obvious reasons (a good audio analyzer isn't cheap, for one). He showed that good engineering makes a good product, not so much fancy parts. Though obviously fancy parts may be used to come up with an even better product if the same care is taken. You're just moving further and further up the diminishing returns curve.

It is ridiculous that even the existence of a "good enough" threshold for hearing had to be debated at length in this day and age. After all, a simple thought experiment should make this clear: Assume you are playing back just the distortion that a component adds, and that it ends up entirely under your hearing threshold (IOW, you're not hearing a peep). How are you expecting to hear it in the presence of the signal?
In real life, the auditory system is even worse. It's not extremely linear to begin with, and shows funny effects such as masking. It just doesn't produce much of any higher-order distortion and thus potentially has a chance of capturing that produced by electronics, at least down to ATH as outlined above. (I played around with harmonics added to a 440 Hz sine once, and found I could still detect the presence of 7th and 8th at -70 dBr, if at fairly high volume.)

Now let's see whether anyone actually comes up with something that betters or equals the O2 and ODAC in every respect. Should be quite doable amp wise, considering the current driving capabilities and noise levels of the lowly 4556 compared to a fancy opamp + buffer combination. Whether anyone is going to bother to adhere to the same kind of standards is another question...
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