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Old 8th February 2013, 09:17 PM   #51
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Thanks to theAnonymous1 for the clues and speaking of significant electronics. . .
For the price of some earbuds, I got an Iriver H10 5GB, formatted it twice with the firmware upgrade tool and swapped it over to UMC loaded up the high speed tweaked firmware, got it flying along at high speed with no lags, saved a copy of all the pertinent files and utilities, and then loaded up RockBox UMC. No struggles on shuffle mode or movies. Yep. Its perfect. Ironically, HiSoundAudio PAA1 Pro earbuds came in the box with it, which was a big surprise. These have the older blue casing but not PAA1 drivers, but rather PAA1-Pro drivers and Sennheiser brand name. They were free with the player and hadn't been mentioned in the advertisement. I did manage to splurge $9 for a sturdy battery and $8 for a spare Seagate Flex-ATA hard drive. So, this brought the whole kit up to the price of the earbuds that were included with it at no extra charge. That's just somewhat ironic and fortunate.

The Iriver plays as well or better than my PC, regardless of the codec used.

High Quality Earbud Reconnoiter!
Markings indicate PAA1-Pro/Live (very expensive at retail):
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

Back in this date of manufacturing, earbuds without the chrome stripe were PAA1-standard with less treble resolution, and earbuds with the chrome stripe were PAA1-Pro with very high resolution for an earbud. Both offer a reasonably level response and powerful clean bass.

Caveat!: Not every earbud in this casing has useful drivers inside. For example, I believe the orignal combination has been discontinued because I did buy some new Pyle branded product in that same casing with junk audio quality--Problem: The Pro/Live has been redecorated and the old style casing has been recycled as a low end product.

So, new product will appear differently.

Searching the Sennheiser lineup. . . MX-365 has a possibility of containing the HiSoundAudio drivers. I don't know if those or which Sennheiser has HiSoundAudio drivers inside or which grade they might be.

Other redecorations:
$50 (theoretically the same as what came with Iriver H10-5)
Click the image to open in full size.

$100 (more decorous appearance and right-left matched)
Click the image to open in full size.
These are from the actual manufacturer and have the same drivers as what came free in the box with every Iriver H10 5gb mp3 player. When original manufacturer also sells retail, it is typical that they will change the appearance and mark up the price and make other differences to avoid competing with their largest clients, like Sennheiser.

THAT is the excellent surprise found in the bottom of the old cardboard box with the used Iriver H10 player. Wow! As a bonus, the player is pretty good too!

P.S.
Hisound "live" at about $100 is the one with Sennheiser sound and good bass. However, at $200, Hisound "Living" imitates Grado sound with excellent resolution at the cost of no bass. So, don't spend too much.
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Last edited by danielwritesbac; 8th February 2013 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 8th February 2013, 09:32 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioLapDance View Post
Ya, not prolific at all (that was only like 3 days)!
Sorry for the delay on fixing up the Sansa Clip+. I was distracted by an old Iriver and an epic reconnoiter made worthwhile by a lot of really high quality jammin out.
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Old 9th February 2013, 07:21 PM   #53
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What headphones did you try with the clip+?

Headphone sources generally put out very different amounts of power into different headphone impedances. For example the Clip+ portable player can put out 16 mW into 16 ohms but only 0.8 mW into 300 ohms. The FiiO E7 can put out over 100 mW into 16 ohms but only 2.8 mW into 600 ohms. And some sources are not as compatible with low impedances such as the Mini3 and FiiO E9.

NwAvGuy: Headphone Impedance Explained

Last edited by AudioLapDance; 9th February 2013 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 10th February 2013, 07:36 AM   #54
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Thanks for the info on the headphones. Actually, the headphones that came with the Sansa are plentifully bassy and easily mask the Sansa's treble hash along with a bit of the audio too. I tried several other headphones.

P.S.
The similarities are uncanny.
Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.
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Last edited by danielwritesbac; 10th February 2013 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 12th February 2013, 01:57 AM   #55
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Hey Daniel,

You did all that investigating into the clip+, I would love to hear some of your results! Is there a particular song you could post encoded a few different ways that shows the distortion?

Only if the files are still around etc ... I don't want you to go to any fuss. Sounds like you've got some awesome projects on the go ...

In a similar vein, you did that great work with Rockbox; would you like to post it over at the Rockbox forum? If not, maybe I could post it for you.

Cheers,
Jeff
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Old 12th February 2013, 04:51 AM   #56
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Yeah, you could quote the Iriver paragraph from post 51 if you wanted to. There's some links that would need copied with it though. The information was almost lost to time if it hadn't been for the Wayback service. Before the mods, that player was a sluggish old thing. But, now, she starts up in 0.78 seconds from button push to rock your socks off.

The WavePack approach with the Sansa Clip+ is mildly interesting if one had already purchased the Clip+ and WavePack at high bitrate is certainly more space efficient than Flac. Given the high power CPU in the Clip+ there should be some possibility of running a live time noise analysis de-fuzz sort of filter or some similar way to provide it a signal that does not aggravate the cheap analog section's tendency to hash up the treble. If it had such a filter, that could give a "load and go" convenience instead of the extensive pre-processing and/or transcoding we do currently. Basically the Sansa has "bad dac" symptoms but I can't tell if it really is bad dac or if it is no-bias battery efficient output section. This easily irritated output is hit or miss compatible with sound files and that's not really "load and go" convenient except for low quality results.

The two items photographed in post#54 are very similar including output quality and should probably be avoided since there are so many other players that could do better.
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Old 13th February 2013, 05:08 PM   #57
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Can you post a song file that has very obvious "hash up the treble" on the clip+ so I can see if I hear it with my clip+ and various phones.

Thanks,
Jeff
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Old 14th February 2013, 08:54 PM   #58
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Default Loud bass. Maybe too much.

Sansa Clip+ factory earbuds and hisoundaudio paa1-pro are very similar with super-loud bass and appear to be related. The more expensive hisound are matched for left right balance and have metal screens for better imaging at the cost of having to use the pads. These sound somewhat like Koss SportaPro/PortaPro. No problem competing with the bass of earplug types. But, there is perhaps too much of a good thing. For generic players, these will all work on the "jazz" setting, a milder version of the "rock" contour.

The Paa1 original that came with the Iriver H10 has a bit less bass but much finer imaging, and a mostly level response. But, it seems that model is discontinued unless Sennheiser redecorated it.

There appears to be a huge variety with earbuds!
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Old 14th February 2013, 09:28 PM   #59
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Default Pre-Process One

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioLapDance View Post
Can you post a song file that has very obvious "hash up the treble" on the clip+ so I can see if I hear it with my clip+ and various phones. Thanks, Jeff
I can't post copyrighted material to diyaudio.com. It was every Joint Stereo (normal mp3 files, like LP, FM and Tape is also Joint Stereo) mp3 that does this, especially bad when combined with stereo widening and/or crossfeed.

I have a new plan for the Sansa Clip+. But, it involves an inconvenient interstage approach and a sturdy computer with a large hard drive.

Step 1:
A custom copy with built in and non-fluttering headphone suitable ambiance that we'll fix up in step 2; so, this first step is all about getting some source material not reliant on joint stereo channels and not prone to hash or flutter.

Foobar2000 transcode to Wav at 24 bits:
Go to Foobar2000 preferences, advanced, find converter, and set the number of threads to 1 (block simultaneous conversions) so it doesn't crash or convolute or severely fragment your hard drive.
5.1 Headphone experience *Foobar configuration for all stereo music files*
Almost just like that, except:
Dolby headphone to #2, live room
Channel mixer upmix rear volume 1.75
Channel mixer check "Add low freqs
Channel mixer low freqs volume 1.25
*if you get clipped output, add foo_invhardlimit.dll to the top of the dsp list.
Create playlist
Select all
Right click and choose Convert.
Select Wav type, select 24 bit, no dither, put all of the above dsp stuff into the Processing (double check all settings too) select an output folder on your hard drive and go.

*The properties-advanced DSP section for playback is separate from the Converter DSP section. Make sure to double check all settings in both places. And, check all converter settings each time before conversion.

At this time, it is necessary to remove all DSP's from Foobar2000, preferences, playback, DSP. The output files already contain the ambiance, so we have to remove the DSP's from the playback section in order to hear it without doubling up.

This was the first step.
The next step is to filter noise with a radio station processor, free SA Stereo Tool and regulate the stereo imaging, all for clarity. Due to complexity, it is not possible to do this all in one fell swoop, so that's why the inter-stage is Wav at 24bits.
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Old 14th February 2013, 10:14 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielwritesbac View Post
I can't post copyrighted material to diyaudio.com. It was every Joint Stereo (normal mp3 files, like LP, FM and Tape is also Joint Stereo) mp3 that does this, especially bad when combined with stereo widening and/or crossfeed. ...
What's 'Joint Stereo' ... is that old hippy classic rock!

What rate mp3?

Thanks,
Jeff
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