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Old 8th May 2012, 12:20 PM   #2431
jtktam is offline jtktam  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorriman View Post

<more cut to condense space>

(selling on ebay: unfortunately the two pro sellers have, IMO, seriously underpriced their offerings which makes the profit from selling a bit marginal. People are getting bargain O2 amps. IMO a proper costing including rationalised factors for returns/risks would have resulted in more like £250+ for each amp. This is what happens when business/costing isn't taught at school even though simultaneous equations are, which are very useful in business.)

<more cut to condense space>
1. the o2 was designed and release OSHW and most of what you called "pro" sellers respected that and sell it at thin margins, to keep in the spirit of OSHW. Also with the boards and parts readily available it keeps everybody's price around the same ball park

2. As of yesterday the exchange rate

UK£ 250 = 402.284808 Canadian dollars

The cost to buy the parts for the standard bill according to the BOM is about $75 plus $25 shipping, so roughly $100-$125 to get some other odds and ends..

you said they should sell it for at least $400.. which is a 400% markup.. I am sure they are savvy business people, but they are not going to gouge their customers either

3. The other day I picked up my Benchmark DAC1 USB for $800.. and it has a built in DAC that was compared to the upcoming ODAC.. there is no market for a $400+ o2..

-joe
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Old 8th May 2012, 12:47 PM   #2432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtktam View Post
1. the o2 was designed and release OSHW and most of what you called "pro" sellers respected that and sell it at thin margins, to keep in the spirit of OSHW. Also with the boards and parts readily available it keeps everybody's price around the same ball park

2. As of yesterday the exchange rate

UK£ 250 = 402.284808 Canadian dollars

The cost to buy the parts for the standard bill according to the BOM is about $75 plus $25 shipping, so roughly $100-$125 to get some other odds and ends..

you said they should sell it for at least $400.. which is a 400% markup.. I am sure they are savvy business people, but they are not going to gouge their customers either

3. The other day I picked up my Benchmark DAC1 USB for $800.. and it has a built in DAC that was compared to the upcoming ODAC.. there is no market for a $400+ o2..

-joe
I totally understand where you are coming from. But as a business proposition it's really terrible. You are working for not so far off an employees wage while taking all the risk and admin. I also don't think the spirit of the OSHW is really affected by a fair, boutique price. It's not really, yet, a mass produced, pile-em-high-and-sell-em-cheap product. When/if China gets involved, then yes, £140 will be a fair price, even less maybe.
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Old 8th May 2012, 01:01 PM   #2433
jtktam is offline jtktam  Canada
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I can't speak for the rest of the builders, but this is not my main bread-butter, I have a normal day job

I custom build for people because I enjoy their comments about how much they enjoy it etc.. and the kits I sell go to people who otherwise can't buy at the volume i buy at to get the same discounts.. I make a few bucks here, lose a few bucks there, it's all awash

-joe
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Old 8th May 2012, 01:32 PM   #2434
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I feel I ought to address this in addition to what I already wrote:

But in summary : this isn't suitable as a thin margin offering.

Quote:
2. As of yesterday the exchange rate

UK£ 250 = 402.284808 Canadian dollars

The cost to buy the parts for the standard bill according to the BOM is about $75 plus $25 shipping, so roughly $100-$125 to get some other odds and ends..

you said they should sell it for at least $400.. which is a 400% markup.. I am sure they are savvy business people, but they are not going to gouge their customers either
These parts costs are high. A reseller of just the parts would expect 25% markup for thin margins. A repackager, like jokener, more I reckon. Then on top is labour, admin (a significant cost), regulatory adherence, equipment, overheads and RISK +others. It all piles up. The final markup on a boutique item should be around 100%. I would take an educated guess at $200 for parts/admin/regulation/overheads/depreciated equipment/accountant etc. So $400 could be about right.

Compared to a Benchmark DAC1 USB for $800? Tricky comparison because that is a 2nd user price and it has a DAC. But the spec of the amp is roughly the same as the O2 so its 2nd user price might notionally be about $400 minus the DAC so the O2 at $400 still has a good price for a new item.
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Old 8th May 2012, 01:34 PM   #2435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtktam View Post
I can't speak for the rest of the builders, but this is not my main bread-butter, I have a normal day job

I custom build for people because I enjoy their comments about how much they enjoy it etc.. and the kits I sell go to people who otherwise can't buy at the volume i buy at to get the same discounts.. I make a few bucks here, lose a few bucks there, it's all awash

-joe
Totally! Which is a completely different proposition to a normal business. I'm not criticising the pro sellers, by the way; I was just mentioning that as something to sell on ebay its not a great way for me or that guy's son to make money due to the underpricing.
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Old 8th May 2012, 01:45 PM   #2436
jtktam is offline jtktam  Canada
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I still think 400% markup is still pipedreams.. there is no way anybody will pay that when they can get the parts from mouser themselves at 1/4 that

-joe
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Old 8th May 2012, 02:04 PM   #2437
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The O2 has never been intended as a way for someone to make shedloads of money by just assembling and selling them. Of course, there's nothing to stop you trying, but there are plenty of people who are happy to make £20 - £30 on each one, selling them for £100, as several people already do. It's not difficult to build - no more than an hour's work if you are a competent, experienced builder, so talk of selling them for £400 a time is just a pipe dream.
You should also consider that it's probably only a matter of time before some enterprising far-eastern manufacturer redesigns the whole thing as a surface-mount board and starts turning them out, ready-built, for a bargain-basement price - after all, the design is out there for free, proven to work and highly respected as a great design - and once that happens, anyone holding stocks of components could end up taking a big financial hit.
Furthermore, the O2 isn't the only headphone amp on the market, there's plenty of competition...
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Old 8th May 2012, 04:13 PM   #2438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenalien View Post
The O2 has never been intended as a way for someone to make shedloads of money by just assembling and selling them. Of course, there's nothing to stop you trying, but there are plenty of people who are happy to make £20 - £30 on each one, selling them for £100, as several people already do. It's not difficult to build - no more than an hour's work if you are a competent, experienced builder, so talk of selling them for £400 a time is just a pipe dream.
Well, yes, but I meant £250/$400; my mistake. I don't think there was any intention either way. You could do as you wished and it just turned out this way which is a bummer for those who would have liked to making some kind of living off such a marvellous device but great for the semi-pro hobbyist doing it more or less for fun. But commercially/business-wise £30 for each is practically slave-labour. I mentioned the other costs and £30 doesn't cover them.

Quote:
You should also consider that it's probably only a matter of time before some enterprising far-eastern manufacturer redesigns the whole thing as a surface-mount board and starts turning them out, ready-built, for a bargain-basement price - after all, the design is out there for free, proven to work and highly respected as a great design - and once that happens, anyone holding stocks of components could end up taking a big financial hit.
Absolutely, and that is part of the risk factor that has to be included in the costing (though doing so could be tricky to quantify). The price should be much much higher.

Quote:
Furthermore, the O2 isn't the only headphone amp on the market, there's plenty of competition...
I wonder about that. Measured amps, HIFI sound, with high power and established credentials? The nearest competitor is likely the Violectric v90 which is $450. (though it seems like RS compares the O2 to the v200 which is $800).
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Old 8th May 2012, 04:54 PM   #2439
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Originally Posted by jtktam View Post
I still think 400% markup is still pipedreams.. there is no way anybody will pay that when they can get the parts from mouser themselves at 1/4 that

-joe
Sure, but that's for the self-builder. For the consumer, especially of high-end headphone amps, $400 for what the O2 represents, is good value.
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Old 8th May 2012, 04:58 PM   #2440
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deleteme

Last edited by lorriman; 8th May 2012 at 04:58 PM. Reason: mistake
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