Coating
Hi, Chinsettawong.
The distortion was probably due to other causes, many, well not so many, have used aluminized mylar with almost zero resistance
succesfully. The company Final for instance, uses a low resistance film with the stepped up signal connected to it. Beveridge Inc did exactly the same in the seventies with a three stator, two membrane driver. Aucostat Inc used aluminized film in early speakers.
And so on......
Regards, Jonas
Hi, Chinsettawong.
The distortion was probably due to other causes, many, well not so many, have used aluminized mylar with almost zero resistance
succesfully. The company Final for instance, uses a low resistance film with the stepped up signal connected to it. Beveridge Inc did exactly the same in the seventies with a three stator, two membrane driver. Aucostat Inc used aluminized film in early speakers.
And so on......
Regards, Jonas
But in the cases you've cited, Jonas, my understanding is that the stators had high resistance. The stators and diaphragm have just exchanged roles as far as resistivity is concerned. I believe either the stators or the diaphragm (not both) have to have high resistivity in order to ensure low distortion at low frequencies.
Few
Few
Hi,
the distortion situation can be kept acceptably low if the stroke of the membrane can be kept small. So its a method which is quite usable for Midhigh-panels, but less so for Bass/FR-panels.
Finals ´inverted´technology has two advantages and these are easier and therefore cheaper construction and safety (still a very important one though). To have the lowcurrent- highvoltage bias on the stators means that in case the stator insulation breaks down, there will be no lethal potential. The possibly lethal potential on the membrane (highvoltage-highcurrent) is still ´encapsulated´ between the stators.
Signals are distorted with this constant voltage technology much more than with the constant charge technology. And time will tell how long this technology lasts. They wouldn´t be the first where the complete aluminized membrane burns down within seconds in a spectacular way.
The stators are of sheetmetal type, so no highimpedance values and constant or fixed charge here!
jauu
Calvin
the distortion situation can be kept acceptably low if the stroke of the membrane can be kept small. So its a method which is quite usable for Midhigh-panels, but less so for Bass/FR-panels.
Finals ´inverted´technology has two advantages and these are easier and therefore cheaper construction and safety (still a very important one though). To have the lowcurrent- highvoltage bias on the stators means that in case the stator insulation breaks down, there will be no lethal potential. The possibly lethal potential on the membrane (highvoltage-highcurrent) is still ´encapsulated´ between the stators.
Signals are distorted with this constant voltage technology much more than with the constant charge technology. And time will tell how long this technology lasts. They wouldn´t be the first where the complete aluminized membrane burns down within seconds in a spectacular way.
The stators are of sheetmetal type, so no highimpedance values and constant or fixed charge here!
jauu
Calvin
Inverted system
Hi MJ Dijkstra,
I second that!
It's lethal to have tensions of 3500v on plates that are not isolated like it should be. If I touch a panel of a leaking ESL I'll have shocks that follows the music.
Thus it's lethal for a child.
Just my 2 cents.
Best Regards,
Audiofanatic
MJ Dijkstra said:
Hi MJ Dijkstra,
I second that!
It's lethal to have tensions of 3500v on plates that are not isolated like it should be. If I touch a panel of a leaking ESL I'll have shocks that follows the music.
Thus it's lethal for a child.
Just my 2 cents.
Best Regards,
Audiofanatic
Hi,
the 3.5kV of bias should not lethal. You might get a slight shock, but it´s not harmful since there is not enough current flow possible. At least thats the way a bias supply schould be designed (remember its not the voltage that is dangerous but the current!)
So the dangerous part of the ESL is where the high voltage and high current meet, which are the Audio-tranny, the cabling to and from the stators and the stators (with a conventional ESL). With the inverted ESL its the Audio tranny, the cabling to the diaphragm and the diaphragm.
The conventional ESL is perfectly safe as long as the insulation barrier of the stators works. It becomes a potential danger, when the insulation breaks down. This is what I had in mind, when I said the inverting ESL would be safer. But as MJ correctly pointed out, the diaphragm of an inverted ESL carries the dangerous voltages/currents and since it can´t be isolated enough, every conducting object (pins, nails,etc) that reaches through the stator holes could provide for a massive, if not lethal shock. I wonder how Final managed to fulfil UL and other safety standard requirements.
jauu
Calvin
the 3.5kV of bias should not lethal. You might get a slight shock, but it´s not harmful since there is not enough current flow possible. At least thats the way a bias supply schould be designed (remember its not the voltage that is dangerous but the current!)
So the dangerous part of the ESL is where the high voltage and high current meet, which are the Audio-tranny, the cabling to and from the stators and the stators (with a conventional ESL). With the inverted ESL its the Audio tranny, the cabling to the diaphragm and the diaphragm.
The conventional ESL is perfectly safe as long as the insulation barrier of the stators works. It becomes a potential danger, when the insulation breaks down. This is what I had in mind, when I said the inverting ESL would be safer. But as MJ correctly pointed out, the diaphragm of an inverted ESL carries the dangerous voltages/currents and since it can´t be isolated enough, every conducting object (pins, nails,etc) that reaches through the stator holes could provide for a massive, if not lethal shock. I wonder how Final managed to fulfil UL and other safety standard requirements.
jauu
Calvin
Lethal?
The Final speakers two bias supplies are fairly low impedance, otherwise you should end up with a low pass filter between
stator/film capacitance and bias supply. Thats why there is a 10nF cap parallelled at the bias output. I dont know if the 0.6 joule of energy stored in this cap its lethal....
The Final speakers two bias supplies are fairly low impedance, otherwise you should end up with a low pass filter between
stator/film capacitance and bias supply. Thats why there is a 10nF cap parallelled at the bias output. I dont know if the 0.6 joule of energy stored in this cap its lethal....
As a precaution to electrical shocks, what kind of guards or isolation materials do you put on the outside of the stators? As for my headphones, I use the same material as my diaphragm to put on the outside of stators. This not only prevents the possibility of electrical shock, it also protects the sweat. But what if it is a big ESL using painted, perforated metal sheet, what would you do to prevent?
Wachara C?
Wachara C?
Distortion
Wachara, the distortion you heard could be the fact that the metallized membrane has a kind of transient rich sound with more attack compared to a high ohm membrane. The later often,
I think, sound too soft. On the whole, the different sounds of various membrane materials is an unexploited field.....
Wachara, the distortion you heard could be the fact that the metallized membrane has a kind of transient rich sound with more attack compared to a high ohm membrane. The later often,
I think, sound too soft. On the whole, the different sounds of various membrane materials is an unexploited field.....
Tesa glue
Greetings Calvin
Tesa Glue the bottle with a blue cap
Has received difficulties to search in catalogue Tesa
Can help me? Show the reference in the Internet the catalogue on correct Tesa
http://www.ciao.de/tesa_Vielzweckkleber__470097
This Tesa correct?
Ist in voraus dankbar
Greetings Calvin
Tesa Glue the bottle with a blue cap
Has received difficulties to search in catalogue Tesa
Can help me? Show the reference in the Internet the catalogue on correct Tesa
http://www.ciao.de/tesa_Vielzweckkleber__470097
This Tesa correct?
Ist in voraus dankbar
Hi Kontra,
I think you can give PVA glue a try. You'll need to thin it down with small amount of water like I suggested. I have built a few pairs of headphone using this formula and it proves to work well.
I'm also building a pair of ESL speaker using this formula to coat the diaphragms - so far so good.
Wachara C.
I think you can give PVA glue a try. You'll need to thin it down with small amount of water like I suggested. I have built a few pairs of headphone using this formula and it proves to work well.
I'm also building a pair of ESL speaker using this formula to coat the diaphragms - so far so good.
Wachara C.
Hi,
looks very much like the right stuff ;-)
I always bought these bottles:
http://www.amazon.de/Tesa-Vielzweck...1_106?ie=UTF8&s=ce-de&qid=1244702281&sr=1-106
jauu
Calvin
looks very much like the right stuff ;-)
I always bought these bottles:
http://www.amazon.de/Tesa-Vielzweck...1_106?ie=UTF8&s=ce-de&qid=1244702281&sr=1-106
jauu
Calvin
Tesa glue - test
Hi Wachara.
I tried it. Unstable resistance. Depends on dampness. Does not suit anywhere.
Tried also phenol + nylon + black lead
Strongly smells, a gas mask, gloves, a heavy film. Not diaphanously, not beautifully.
Has decided to try this Tesa glue with ink and water
Hi Wachara.
chinsettawong said:
I tried it. Unstable resistance. Depends on dampness. Does not suit anywhere.
Tried also phenol + nylon + black lead
Strongly smells, a gas mask, gloves, a heavy film. Not diaphanously, not beautifully.
Has decided to try this Tesa glue with ink and water
super Tesa!
Many thanks Calvin.
Thank for the new recipe and for precise helps.
How your composition adheres{sticks} on mailar?
I test adhesion of a conductible finish so:
1. I cover{coat} a surface of an experimental model on which I train
2. I dry day
3. I measure resistance a high-voltage ohmmeter (a terminal voltage of the voltmeter of 6 thousand volt)
4. I stick down{I past} to a coverage office gluing fillet (adhesive tape)
5. Sharply I pull edge of a gluing fillet
a) The coverage remained on a gluing fillet
b) The gluing bed from a gluing fillet has remained on a conductible finish
Event b) the best outcome.
You so tested the coverage?
Calvin said:
Many thanks Calvin.
Thank for the new recipe and for precise helps.
How your composition adheres{sticks} on mailar?
I test adhesion of a conductible finish so:
1. I cover{coat} a surface of an experimental model on which I train
2. I dry day
3. I measure resistance a high-voltage ohmmeter (a terminal voltage of the voltmeter of 6 thousand volt)
4. I stick down{I past} to a coverage office gluing fillet (adhesive tape)
5. Sharply I pull edge of a gluing fillet
a) The coverage remained on a gluing fillet
b) The gluing bed from a gluing fillet has remained on a conductible finish
Event b) the best outcome.
You so tested the coverage?
??
Kontra, You mean that:
1.You spread the conductive coating on a piece of Mylar.
2. You let it dry for one day
3. You measure the conductivity with 6Kv Voltmeter.
4. You press a piece of tape on dry coating.
5. You rip off the tape.
6. You see if the coating remains on Mylar or adheres to the tape.
Is this correct? If so, it's not a good method of testing the life span of a coating. The coating can loose its conductivity without leaving its base, the membrane.
Jonas
Kontra, You mean that:
1.You spread the conductive coating on a piece of Mylar.
2. You let it dry for one day
3. You measure the conductivity with 6Kv Voltmeter.
4. You press a piece of tape on dry coating.
5. You rip off the tape.
6. You see if the coating remains on Mylar or adheres to the tape.
Is this correct? If so, it's not a good method of testing the life span of a coating. The coating can loose its conductivity without leaving its base, the membrane.
Jonas
Hi,
I have old panels standing in a rather wet and open cellar. Every now and then I test them on function. For ~5 years now there´s no change in performance. Additionally there are some guys using this formula and none has reported any problems.
So I´m quite confident with the longtime performance of the coating.
jauu
Calvin
I have old panels standing in a rather wet and open cellar. Every now and then I test them on function. For ~5 years now there´s no change in performance. Additionally there are some guys using this formula and none has reported any problems.
So I´m quite confident with the longtime performance of the coating.
jauu
Calvin
adgesia
Calvin and JonasKarud
About yes! I always remember as to do{make} measurings.
Thank for your care
(I Ask to take into account linguistic difficulties, my computer the translator cannot pitch{impart;transfer} you mood of my mind{wit}, beforehand I ask to excuse me for involuntary sharpnesses
At me negative experience when the coverage has not adhered was, the adhesive tape separated, I have made practical experience, have collected, in three months had "three" membranes. (humour)
I began to think this occupation and have come to an output, that all that acoustical pressure which we hear forms by a film mailar which drags behind itself such coverage. And thus adhesion should be. And adhesion "resolute" a problem costs{stands} so: how to create a gear (a means of measuring) (a calibrated counter of adhesion) at me such gear is. If was exact. With one division. You with Calvin have shown me a sight at it on the other hand.
I am very grateful both Calvin and JonasKarud.
I have recollected now as at MJ Dijkstra have caused light misunderstanding, my problem on adhesive force of his{its} coverage. (Humour)
Necessarily I try recipe Calvin in the experiences.
As glue in the recipe - very sticky.
Once again thank both of you
English at us my computer probably as at the pirate with a sabre.
Calvin and JonasKarud
About yes! I always remember as to do{make} measurings.
Thank for your care
(I Ask to take into account linguistic difficulties, my computer the translator cannot pitch{impart;transfer} you mood of my mind{wit}, beforehand I ask to excuse me for involuntary sharpnesses
At me negative experience when the coverage has not adhered was, the adhesive tape separated, I have made practical experience, have collected, in three months had "three" membranes.
(humour)I began to think this occupation and have come to an output, that all that acoustical pressure which we hear forms by a film mailar which drags behind itself such coverage. And thus adhesion should be. And adhesion "resolute" a problem costs{stands} so: how to create a gear (a means of measuring) (a calibrated counter of adhesion) at me such gear is. If was exact. With one division. You with Calvin have shown me a sight at it on the other hand.
I am very grateful both Calvin and JonasKarud.
I have recollected now as at MJ Dijkstra have caused light misunderstanding, my problem on adhesive force of his{its} coverage. (Humour)
Necessarily I try recipe Calvin in the experiences.
As glue in the recipe - very sticky.
Once again thank both of you
English at us my computer probably as at the pirate with a sabre.
I finally got some work done on my electrostatic setup this weekend...
Not much on the headphones, just found a donor frame and made some transitional
pieces for attaching the bale to the stator frame(the grey pieces of plastic).
I did most of the prep work for the chassis for my energizer as well; 1/8" aluminum plate
with ipe side pieces salvaged from a high end deck years ago.
Still waiting on parts!
@Wachara, if you would like me to post this in an independent thread let me know. I thought it might be nice to have a single resource in this thread for anyone wanting to build a set.
Not much on the headphones, just found a donor frame and made some transitional
pieces for attaching the bale to the stator frame(the grey pieces of plastic).
I did most of the prep work for the chassis for my energizer as well; 1/8" aluminum plate
with ipe side pieces salvaged from a high end deck years ago.
Still waiting on parts!
@Wachara, if you would like me to post this in an independent thread let me know. I thought it might be nice to have a single resource in this thread for anyone wanting to build a set.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.