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Old 18th March 2013, 01:49 AM   #161
bcmbob is offline bcmbob  United States
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Found the references. Same vendor.

Shipping

Impressions
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Old 18th March 2013, 01:55 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaveFremen View Post
I can buy them for those interested.

A costly alternative would be the BG F linked by Bob.

Also the BG F linked by Bob should be a nice choice, probably excellent also for C1/C2.

If someone is willing to organize a GB for them I'll be in for 4 of them

.
Dario,

I hope you don't mind me using your thread for this. I could start my own, but this is a question of parts for the build, so I was hoping this would be OK.



OK all you FE builders, we have two possible cap group buy alternatives. For me, these are mainly for C1,C2, but some of you may want the BG F for C9.

Choice 1 would be ask Dario to buy the Elna RJH and add them to our board shipment. This is a very nice choice and is cost effective at 0.79 Euro plus shipping twice. My guess is that these will somewhere between 3 and 5 Euros each, depending on how many of us sign up, but the final price is up to Dario.

Currently, I would go for 9 Elnas, Bob has stated interest. Anybody else?

Choice 2, if Bob can confirm the ebay supplier, I can organize buying BG F caps on ebay. In this case, the goal would be to get a group buy of 50 caps together to save money. At 50, the cost would be $10.80 per cap plus whatever shipping from me to you. If we can't get 50 together but there is good interest, I will contact the seller to see if he will do a deal for a quantity between 1 and 50. The hope would be to bring the shipping cost down.

At the moment, I would be interested in 11 BG F and Dario would be interested in 4. Which choice should we pursue?

Jac
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Old 18th March 2013, 02:01 AM   #163
bcmbob is offline bcmbob  United States
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Well I won't make it simple. I'll go for two pair (4) BG F for sure, but if Dario gets enough interest I'll buy two (2) of those also.

The BG vendor still might make a deal even if we don't get all the way to 50.
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Last edited by bcmbob; 18th March 2013 at 02:03 AM.
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Old 18th March 2013, 05:33 AM   #164
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I wouldn't pay ten cents for a "Blackgate" cap sold on eBay from Taiwan. Get real, guys. The only reason they're for sale from Taiwan and nowhere else in the world is because they're FAKE. Sorry, Bob, but I think you've been lied to.

I would sooner go back to the Twisted Pear configuration of a lesser 'lytic bypassed with a quality film. There is no other 'lytic I tried at C9 that sounded as good as the BG STD. If PK or F or whatever is even better than STD, then you probably will be disappointed if you must use, say, Silmic or any Nichicon; they're not even close. We went down that road a long time ago. C1 and C2 are a different story altogether, and I don't think you need the ultimate cap there to get excellent performance.

Is there good reason to believe that a 4v rated cap will be reliable in C9 position? I don't think one year of service is a sufficient test. On the other hand, it may be perfectly adequate. Does anyone really know? If it fails, what are the consequences? I wish I understood exactly what C9 does. If it only blocks DC, then how can the value ever get too big? Does using 470uF instead of 220uF make any sonic impact? If not, then why would 1000? Overkill in one sense, and crazy expensive, but perhaps a better option than an underrated cap or a fake one, if it fulfills its important sonic role.

Set your sonic priorities and pursue them logically.

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Tom E
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Old 18th March 2013, 06:02 AM   #165
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Whoever will pay 540$ for a 220uF BG F series cap is totally insane in my book or has tons of money to throw in the air...

For much less u can get a much better film cap. Electrolytics are no match for film caps in my book but then again space is an issue...
ClarityCap TC Series Film Capacitor

I totally agree with Mundorf AG but they're 2200uF and up...

Do
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Old 18th March 2013, 06:50 AM   #166
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Can't see past your nose, Pinnocchio? $540 is for 50 pcs. If they were genuine, they'd almost be worth it, and I'd pay it due to previous experience with this amp/component. Many will testify that there are decent deals available, and I've bought some myself, but I have zero confidence in the integrity of anyone selling extinct parts from Taiwan on eBay. Positive feedback is not a valid indicator. It's fun to believe you've found buried treasure.

There must be another solution to this problem.

1000uF Mundorf AG (25mm diameter) is listed on their data sheet, but not listed for sale by Parts Connexion. Now THAT might be a worthwhile search and a group buy. The 2200uF is $14, so maybe 1000uF would be around $10 each. Could we get a deal on 50 or 100? That's almost worth it, if it would work in this circuit at C9 and the Mundorf sounds as good as people say it does.

Don't know where I got the idea they're for sale at PC. Guess I can't see past my nose, either!

Peace,
Tom E
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Old 18th March 2013, 07:04 AM   #167
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Sorry to be filling this thread with my ravings, but this is a key topic.

I scroll down the Mundorf data sheet and see there are CUSTOM VALUES and a wide range of sizes available. Minimum quantity is 144, delivery is 4 to 6 weeks. If there is sufficient interest from this group, I would be willing to inquire with Parts Connexion if they would broker a buy of sufficient quantity, made to our specification. Perhaps they would even carry the balance for their own sale--I'm sure this is a popular size. We could get 220uF 50v, or whatever we want, in a smaller package to fit the FE boards. How cool would that be?

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Tom E
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Old 18th March 2013, 02:23 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by lehmanhill View Post
My guess is that these will somewhere between 3 and 5 Euros each, depending on how many of us sign up, but the final price is up to Dario.
As a starting point 4 RJH will cost 4.5 (incl. VAT, shipping quota and PP fees), price could lower a bit if q.ty rise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madisonears View Post
I have zero confidence in the integrity of anyone selling extinct parts from Taiwan on eBay. Positive feedback is not a valid indicator. It's fun to believe you've found buried treasure.
I would not be so sure about it...

BG F are very old, they were superseded by BG FK several years ago, maybe those caps are dried but I don't think they're fake.

I've bought some FKs from Russia last year and they sound better than BG STD, if they're fake they're a good one

Quote:
Originally Posted by madisonears View Post
We could get 220uF 50v, or whatever we want, in a smaller package to fit the FE boards. How cool would that be?
It would be really nice but I'm a bit skeptik on F&T (the Mundorf AG manifacturer) making a 7.5mm LS, 16mm diameter cap on demand when all AG production is snap-in compatible.

Maybe you can try to ask, if they confirm I will be interested.
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Old 18th March 2013, 06:29 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by madisonears View Post
I wouldn't pay ten cents for a "Blackgate" cap sold on eBay from Taiwan. Get real, guys. The only reason they're for sale from Taiwan and nowhere else in the world is because they're FAKE. Sorry, Bob, but I think you've been lied to.

Is there good reason to believe that a 4v rated cap will be reliable in C9 position? I don't think one year of service is a sufficient test. On the other hand, it may be perfectly adequate. Does anyone really know? If it fails, what are the consequences? I wish I understood exactly what C9 does. If it only blocks DC, then how can the value ever get too big? Does using 470uF instead of 220uF make any sonic impact? If not, then why would 1000? Overkill in one sense, and crazy expensive, but perhaps a better option than an underrated cap or a fake one, if it fulfills its important sonic role.

Peace,
Tom E
Good grief Tom! You really know how to throw a wet blanket on things. I'm guessing few will be interested in trying for BG F caps after your tirade. Is it so hard to believe that some enterprising guy in Taiwan recognized that there was value in BG caps and bought some NOS?

Bob took the long chance (Bravo, Bob!) and tried them. He did his due diligence, did listening tests, and found them worthy. He has confirmed that what is available now is from the same vendor. That isn't perfectly risk free, but it is a lot more of a sure thing than the original risk he took. I'm inclined to agree with Dario, they may be dried out due to age, but are likely to be real.

Regarding the voltage rating on C9, this is how I look at it.

Let us assume that you have a line level signal coming into the amp at max volume. That would be 0.447 V peak or round it up to 0.5 volt. That is basically the voltage at the minus terminal of the LM318. Now, the op amp's mission in life is to make the difference between the plus and minus input equal to zero. Since the plus input of the 318 is the same voltage as C9 relative to ground, the most voltage that C9 could see would be 0.5 volts.

Do it another way. Take the 1/2 volt * gain (30) and you get 15 volts max at the output. Now put the 15 volts at the voltage divider formed by R7 and R10. That means that C9 is at about 1/2 volt above ground.

The function of C9/R10 is to decrease the gain of the 318 at low frequencies as the 318 isn't so stable there. That means that at low frequencies, the impedance of the C9/R10 filter gets bigger. As it does that, the output gets smaller and the voltage at C9 says at about 1/2 volt.

Of course, I've simplified and taken short cuts, but I think that 4 or 6.3 volt caps appear to be plenty high enough voltage rating for C9.

Jac

Last edited by lehmanhill; 18th March 2013 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 18th March 2013, 06:40 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by ClaveFremen View Post
As a starting point 4 RJH will cost 4.5 (incl. VAT, shipping quota and PP fees), price could lower a bit if q.ty rise.
Thanks Dario. After writing my last post, I think I have convinced myself that the BG PK is good for C9, so I guess I don't really need any of BG F. That means I am mainly looking for C1, C2.

I am in for 9 Elna RJH. I know these are nice caps, so they are worth a little extra.

Jac
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