Acko, Australia X1
RollE2k, Sweden X1
number9, USA X2
Klipschkid, HK, x1
randytsuch, USA X2
grufti, USA X2
kp93300, malaysia x1
Gricko,Croatia x1
NicMac, Italy x2
xtomm, Czech Republic x1
DeanoUK, UK, x2
Lil' Knight, VN x1
smanz, Spain x1
MisterRogers, USA x2
palmito USA x1
tagheuer Canada x1
shoom UK x1
Diyfan, USA x1
TheShaman, Greece x1
LuisMCP, Spain x2
qusp x1
danny_66 x1
meintan x1
mksung x 1
vanwykca UK x1
ccliu, Taiwan x2
leejh x10
bk856er, USA x1
linuxfan, Australia X1
bigpandahk, Hong Kong x 2
rsotirov, Canada x 1
DQ828, Australia x 1
Esl 63, Sweden, x 1
necplusultra Canada x1 (depends on shipping halfway accross the world)
Awh, uk, x1
enantra, Spain x3
mvaldes, Italy x1
SCompRacer, USA x1
t27049215, Taiwan x2
unixdeveloper, USA x1
nik.d, Serbia x1
markus22ch, Switzerland X2
whmok, Singapore x1
vitalica x 2
richard_pc, Taiwan x2
Malvin, USA x1
damohpi, AUS x1
Eric06,France x1
sidiropa, Greece x2
miksi, Serbia x1
glt, USA x1
hochopeper, Aus x1
fredlock, USA X1
Galvani, Country ?? X1
bkdog Australia x1
duc985 Germany x 1
opc Canada x 1
Total = 82
RollE2k, Sweden X1
number9, USA X2
Klipschkid, HK, x1
randytsuch, USA X2
grufti, USA X2
kp93300, malaysia x1
Gricko,Croatia x1
NicMac, Italy x2
xtomm, Czech Republic x1
DeanoUK, UK, x2
Lil' Knight, VN x1
smanz, Spain x1
MisterRogers, USA x2
palmito USA x1
tagheuer Canada x1
shoom UK x1
Diyfan, USA x1
TheShaman, Greece x1
LuisMCP, Spain x2
qusp x1
danny_66 x1
meintan x1
mksung x 1
vanwykca UK x1
ccliu, Taiwan x2
leejh x10
bk856er, USA x1
linuxfan, Australia X1
bigpandahk, Hong Kong x 2
rsotirov, Canada x 1
DQ828, Australia x 1
Esl 63, Sweden, x 1
necplusultra Canada x1 (depends on shipping halfway accross the world)
Awh, uk, x1
enantra, Spain x3
mvaldes, Italy x1
SCompRacer, USA x1
t27049215, Taiwan x2
unixdeveloper, USA x1
nik.d, Serbia x1
markus22ch, Switzerland X2
whmok, Singapore x1
vitalica x 2
richard_pc, Taiwan x2
Malvin, USA x1
damohpi, AUS x1
Eric06,France x1
sidiropa, Greece x2
miksi, Serbia x1
glt, USA x1
hochopeper, Aus x1
fredlock, USA X1
Galvani, Country ?? X1
bkdog Australia x1
duc985 Germany x 1
opc Canada x 1
Total = 82
Acko, Australia X1
RollE2k, Sweden X1
number9, USA X2
Klipschkid, HK, x1
randytsuch, USA X2
grufti, USA X2
kp93300, malaysia x1
Gricko,Croatia x1
NicMac, Italy x2
xtomm, Czech Republic x1
DeanoUK, UK, x2
Lil' Knight, VN x1
smanz, Spain x1
MisterRogers, USA x2
palmito USA x1
tagheuer Canada x1
shoom UK x1
Diyfan, USA x1
TheShaman, Greece x1
LuisMCP, Spain x2
qusp x1
danny_66 x1
meintan x1
mksung x 1
vanwykca UK x1
ccliu, Taiwan x2
leejh x10
bk856er, USA x1
linuxfan, Australia X1
bigpandahk, Hong Kong x 2
rsotirov, Canada x 1
DQ828, Australia x 1
Esl 63, Sweden, x 1
necplusultra Canada x1 (depends on shipping halfway accross the world)
Awh, uk, x1
enantra, Spain x3
mvaldes, Italy x1
SCompRacer, USA x1
t27049215, Taiwan x2
unixdeveloper, USA x1
nik.d, Serbia x1
markus22ch, Switzerland X2
whmok, Singapore x1
vitalica x 2
richard_pc, Taiwan x1
Malvin, USA x1
damohpi, AUS x1
Eric06,France x1
sidiropa, Greece x2
miksi, Serbia x1
glt, USA x1
hochopeper, Aus x1
fredlock, USA X1
Galvani, Country ?? X1
bkdog Australia x1
duc985 Germany x 1
opc Canada x 1
AR2 USA x 2
Total 83
RollE2k, Sweden X1
number9, USA X2
Klipschkid, HK, x1
randytsuch, USA X2
grufti, USA X2
kp93300, malaysia x1
Gricko,Croatia x1
NicMac, Italy x2
xtomm, Czech Republic x1
DeanoUK, UK, x2
Lil' Knight, VN x1
smanz, Spain x1
MisterRogers, USA x2
palmito USA x1
tagheuer Canada x1
shoom UK x1
Diyfan, USA x1
TheShaman, Greece x1
LuisMCP, Spain x2
qusp x1
danny_66 x1
meintan x1
mksung x 1
vanwykca UK x1
ccliu, Taiwan x2
leejh x10
bk856er, USA x1
linuxfan, Australia X1
bigpandahk, Hong Kong x 2
rsotirov, Canada x 1
DQ828, Australia x 1
Esl 63, Sweden, x 1
necplusultra Canada x1 (depends on shipping halfway accross the world)
Awh, uk, x1
enantra, Spain x3
mvaldes, Italy x1
SCompRacer, USA x1
t27049215, Taiwan x2
unixdeveloper, USA x1
nik.d, Serbia x1
markus22ch, Switzerland X2
whmok, Singapore x1
vitalica x 2
richard_pc, Taiwan x1
Malvin, USA x1
damohpi, AUS x1
Eric06,France x1
sidiropa, Greece x2
miksi, Serbia x1
glt, USA x1
hochopeper, Aus x1
fredlock, USA X1
Galvani, Country ?? X1
bkdog Australia x1
duc985 Germany x 1
opc Canada x 1
AR2 USA x 2
Total 83
Acko, Australia X1
RollE2k, Sweden X1
number9, USA X2
Klipschkid, HK, x1
randytsuch, USA X2
grufti, USA X2
kp93300, malaysia x1
Gricko,Croatia x1
NicMac, Italy x2
xtomm, Czech Republic x1
DeanoUK, UK, x2
Lil' Knight, VN x1
smanz, Spain x1
MisterRogers, USA x2
palmito USA x1
tagheuer Canada x1
shoom UK x1
Diyfan, USA x1
TheShaman, Greece x3
LuisMCP, Spain x2
qusp x1
danny_66 x1
meintan x1
mksung x 1
vanwykca UK x1
ccliu, Taiwan x2
leejh x10
bk856er, USA x1
linuxfan, Australia X1
bigpandahk, Hong Kong x 2
rsotirov, Canada x 1
DQ828, Australia x 1
Esl 63, Sweden, x 1
necplusultra Canada x1 (depends on shipping halfway accross the world)
Awh, uk, x1
enantra, Spain x3
mvaldes, Italy x1
SCompRacer, USA x1
t27049215, Taiwan x2
unixdeveloper, USA x1
nik.d, Serbia x1
markus22ch, Switzerland X2
whmok, Singapore x1
vitalica x 2
richard_pc, Taiwan x1
Malvin, USA x1
damohpi, AUS x1
Eric06,France x1
sidiropa, Greece x2
miksi, Serbia x1
glt, USA x1
hochopeper, Aus x1
fredlock, USA X1
Galvani, Country ?? X1
bkdog Australia x1
duc985 Germany x 1
opc Canada x 1
AR2 USA x 2
Total: 85
RollE2k, Sweden X1
number9, USA X2
Klipschkid, HK, x1
randytsuch, USA X2
grufti, USA X2
kp93300, malaysia x1
Gricko,Croatia x1
NicMac, Italy x2
xtomm, Czech Republic x1
DeanoUK, UK, x2
Lil' Knight, VN x1
smanz, Spain x1
MisterRogers, USA x2
palmito USA x1
tagheuer Canada x1
shoom UK x1
Diyfan, USA x1
TheShaman, Greece x3
LuisMCP, Spain x2
qusp x1
danny_66 x1
meintan x1
mksung x 1
vanwykca UK x1
ccliu, Taiwan x2
leejh x10
bk856er, USA x1
linuxfan, Australia X1
bigpandahk, Hong Kong x 2
rsotirov, Canada x 1
DQ828, Australia x 1
Esl 63, Sweden, x 1
necplusultra Canada x1 (depends on shipping halfway accross the world)
Awh, uk, x1
enantra, Spain x3
mvaldes, Italy x1
SCompRacer, USA x1
t27049215, Taiwan x2
unixdeveloper, USA x1
nik.d, Serbia x1
markus22ch, Switzerland X2
whmok, Singapore x1
vitalica x 2
richard_pc, Taiwan x1
Malvin, USA x1
damohpi, AUS x1
Eric06,France x1
sidiropa, Greece x2
miksi, Serbia x1
glt, USA x1
hochopeper, Aus x1
fredlock, USA X1
Galvani, Country ?? X1
bkdog Australia x1
duc985 Germany x 1
opc Canada x 1
AR2 USA x 2
Total: 85
Potato vs Others
Seems we are getting a panel with 2 boards: one with potato foot prints and the other with standard FF. The Potato FF have "odd" footprints for a FF likely due to their noise reduction designs. (However, the Potato is easier to solder)
Whether you use one or the other, they will run at the exact same speed which is the speed of the clock you feed to it.
If you look at their documentation, the Potato part uses clever layout and design to reduce noise while using the same semiconductor fab technology as the standard parts.
So in theory, at the same speed, the POTATO will run at lower noise and in theory add less jitter.
While less jitter is nice, recent measurements by Ian (I think on his dual board with a standard clock using standard FF) show 5 ps RMS. This is already near noise floor of megabuck equipment.
But this being diy, we find satisfaction in over designing our gizmos
Seems we are getting a panel with 2 boards: one with potato foot prints and the other with standard FF. The Potato FF have "odd" footprints for a FF likely due to their noise reduction designs. (However, the Potato is easier to solder)
Whether you use one or the other, they will run at the exact same speed which is the speed of the clock you feed to it.
If you look at their documentation, the Potato part uses clever layout and design to reduce noise while using the same semiconductor fab technology as the standard parts.
So in theory, at the same speed, the POTATO will run at lower noise and in theory add less jitter.
While less jitter is nice, recent measurements by Ian (I think on his dual board with a standard clock using standard FF) show 5 ps RMS. This is already near noise floor of megabuck equipment.
But this being diy, we find satisfaction in over designing our gizmos
glt,
I have no problem with the OTT solution to any problem, as long as the user is aware of any technical downside to the OTT solution that they choose.
I will expand on what I said earlier in this thread, the Potato FF WILL cause problems if the subsequent cables/DAC are less than EXCELLENT design. As the rise time of the signal will be less than 10% of the period of the clock then the design of the PCB and conductors carrying the signal must be considering of the behaviour of the higher freq and bandwidth of the signal they must now carry. The Potato FF is designed to operate up to GHz frequencies so its tr is much quicker than the other parts.
tr/tf is the time for signal to go from 10% - 90% and on the Potato FFs in this case are speced for 0.8ns.
See the first point raised here - Red Flags
The kicker here is that your point to point wired reclocking with these chips may work but they are going to cause issues with radiated noise and conducted noise added to your system. Faster tr is not the holy grail in low jitter systems IMO though it may contribute. The lower noise design of the chip is meaningless if it is trumped by feeding a very fast tr/tf signal into a system that is simply unequipped to manage a signal of the speed.
Hope this helps to clear up some confusion for everyone.
Chris
I have no problem with the OTT solution to any problem, as long as the user is aware of any technical downside to the OTT solution that they choose.
I will expand on what I said earlier in this thread, the Potato FF WILL cause problems if the subsequent cables/DAC are less than EXCELLENT design. As the rise time of the signal will be less than 10% of the period of the clock then the design of the PCB and conductors carrying the signal must be considering of the behaviour of the higher freq and bandwidth of the signal they must now carry. The Potato FF is designed to operate up to GHz frequencies so its tr is much quicker than the other parts.
tr/tf is the time for signal to go from 10% - 90% and on the Potato FFs in this case are speced for 0.8ns.
See the first point raised here - Red Flags
The kicker here is that your point to point wired reclocking with these chips may work but they are going to cause issues with radiated noise and conducted noise added to your system. Faster tr is not the holy grail in low jitter systems IMO though it may contribute. The lower noise design of the chip is meaningless if it is trumped by feeding a very fast tr/tf signal into a system that is simply unequipped to manage a signal of the speed.
Hope this helps to clear up some confusion for everyone.
Chris
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glt, you are missing the point, the signal doesnt stay on this board does it?
and 'working' seems to be completely subjective in this/your case. for instance sending it to less than well grounded, less than well terminated devices may mean worse performance from the faster part, due to lack of ability to deal with such fast signals. again we are not talking about clock speed, though that is a factor.
and 'working' seems to be completely subjective in this/your case. for instance sending it to less than well grounded, less than well terminated devices may mean worse performance from the faster part, due to lack of ability to deal with such fast signals. again we are not talking about clock speed, though that is a factor.
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Perhaps I wasn't clear enough that the requirement is for the devices that connect to the signals that this device creates. Acko has said the extra time needed to lay out the high speed board and he has the knowledge to produce a design suitable for these speeds, he's been doing this stuff for a while now.
Cheers,
Chris
RollE2k, Sweden X1
number9, USA X2
Klipschkid, HK, x1
randytsuch, USA X2
grufti, USA X2
kp93300, malaysia x1
Gricko,Croatia x1
NicMac, Italy x2
xtomm, Czech Republic x1
DeanoUK, UK, x2
Lil' Knight, VN x1
smanz, Spain x1
MisterRogers, USA x2
palmito USA x1
tagheuer Canada x1
shoom UK x1
Diyfan, USA x1
TheShaman, Greece x3
LuisMCP, Spain x2
qusp x1
danny_66 x1
meintan x1
mksung x 1
vanwykca UK x1
ccliu, Taiwan x2
leejh x10
bk856er, USA x1
linuxfan, Australia X1
bigpandahk, Hong Kong x 2
rsotirov, Canada x 1
DQ828, Australia x 1
Esl 63, Sweden, x 1
necplusultra Canada x1 (depends on shipping halfway accross the world)
Awh, uk, x1
enantra, Spain x3
mvaldes, Italy x1
SCompRacer, USA x1
t27049215, Taiwan x2
unixdeveloper, USA x1
nik.d, Serbia x1
markus22ch, Switzerland X2
whmok, Singapore x1
vitalica x 2
richard_pc, Taiwan x1
Malvin, USA x1
damohpi, AUS x1
Eric06,France x1
sidiropa, Greece x2
miksi, Serbia x1
glt, USA x1
hochopeper, Aus x1
fredlock, USA X1
Galvani, Country ?? X1
bkdog Australia x1
duc985 Germany x 1
opc Canada x 1
AR2 USA x 2
supra X 2
TOTAL :87
May bee we should room 101 some of this stuff-
How many pico seconds of jitter can we hear ?
Should we be dealing with correctly balanced transmission lines ?
Kirchhoff's law analysis for the "isolation problem" ?
After reading g*d knows how many posts, I am ready to get my iron out and ears in.
Hope we all get there in the end.
Dean.
How many pico seconds of jitter can we hear ?
Should we be dealing with correctly balanced transmission lines ?
Kirchhoff's law analysis for the "isolation problem" ?
After reading g*d knows how many posts, I am ready to get my iron out and ears in.
Hope we all get there in the end.
Dean.
I am saying that if you are using lead out wires rather than u.fl or connecting it to a pcb that has not had high speeds considered in the design's i2s/dsd traces you will create noise (radiated and conducted) in your system.
The ebay es9018 PCBs do not suit the potato FF there will be people using these reclocking devices with boards that are not the ESS DACs also. For some DACs that do not support high MCLK freq the layout assumes a slower signal (tr/tf) than is produced by the Potato FF. That is a valid design assumption in those cases but to connect Potato FF to those designs and expect a better because of the faster speeds will be a mistake.
IMO for those PCBs the slower FF will give a better result. The TPA and Acko PCBs are well designed and should suit the faster FF if they are well connected. The speed of the clock is irrelevant when the rise time increases to this level and I would consider a u.fl or w.fl coaxial cable mandatory for a signal with less than 1ns rise time.
In the case that you have radiated noise you will then be relying on the other nearby equipment being immune to the noise produced or to reject the conducted noise which is not good system design IMO. It is better to eliminate the source of noise than to manage/attenuate the noise later.
I was trying to be non-specific because there is more than one reason that a design may be considered unsuitable for high speed signals. For example it may be that the designer does not yet know how to do it well enough or that the designer has made a valid assumption that with a DAC that only supports say 25MHz or 12MHz MCLK there is no need to spend the extra effort in design and cost in manufacture.
To say that the Potato Semi FF will be better in all cases regardless of connected devices would be misleading. The above is exactly why Acko is offering two boards and leaving it to builders to chose which suits their system better.
Cheers,
Chris
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To write a 101 on a subject like amount of audible jitter you had better have a industrial flame retardant suit! Have you ever seen a civilised discussion between audiophiles regarding jitter?
The rest is best left to electrical signal specialist as they are purely electrical design aspects, search the internet for details and read textbooks on the matter.
One resource I have found particularly useful is http://www.hottconsultants.com/tips.html
Since I have enjoyed reading his articles I have purchased his ~900 page textbook to learn more than what knowledge he has given away for free on his website.
Cheers,
Chris
RollE2k, Sweden X1
number9, USA X2
Klipschkid, HK, x1
randytsuch, USA X2
grufti, USA X2
kp93300, malaysia x1
Gricko,Croatia x1
NicMac, Italy x2
xtomm, Czech Republic x1
DeanoUK, UK, x2
Lil' Knight, VN x1
smanz, Spain x1
MisterRogers, USA x2
palmito USA x1
tagheuer Canada x1
shoom UK x1
Diyfan, USA x1
TheShaman, Greece x3
LuisMCP, Spain x2
qusp x1
danny_66 x1
meintan x1
mksung x 1
vanwykca UK x1
ccliu, Taiwan x2
leejh x10
bk856er, USA x1
linuxfan, Australia X1
bigpandahk, Hong Kong x 2
rsotirov, Canada x 1
DQ828, Australia x 1
Esl 63, Sweden, x 1
necplusultra Canada x1 (depends on shipping halfway accross the world)
Awh, uk, x1
enantra, Spain x3
mvaldes, Italy x1
SCompRacer, USA x1
t27049215, Taiwan x2
unixdeveloper, USA x1
nik.d, Serbia x1
markus22ch, Switzerland X2
whmok, Singapore x1
vitalica x 2
richard_pc, Taiwan x1
Malvin, USA x1
damohpi, AUS x1
Eric06,France x1
sidiropa, Greece x2
miksi, Serbia x1
glt, USA x1
hochopeper, Aus x1
fredlock, USA X1
Galvani, Country ?? X1
bkdog Australia x1
duc985 Germany x 1
opc Canada x 1
AR2 USA x 2
supra X 2
aos Canada x 1
TOTAL :88
number9, USA X2
Klipschkid, HK, x1
randytsuch, USA X2
grufti, USA X2
kp93300, malaysia x1
Gricko,Croatia x1
NicMac, Italy x2
xtomm, Czech Republic x1
DeanoUK, UK, x2
Lil' Knight, VN x1
smanz, Spain x1
MisterRogers, USA x2
palmito USA x1
tagheuer Canada x1
shoom UK x1
Diyfan, USA x1
TheShaman, Greece x3
LuisMCP, Spain x2
qusp x1
danny_66 x1
meintan x1
mksung x 1
vanwykca UK x1
ccliu, Taiwan x2
leejh x10
bk856er, USA x1
linuxfan, Australia X1
bigpandahk, Hong Kong x 2
rsotirov, Canada x 1
DQ828, Australia x 1
Esl 63, Sweden, x 1
necplusultra Canada x1 (depends on shipping halfway accross the world)
Awh, uk, x1
enantra, Spain x3
mvaldes, Italy x1
SCompRacer, USA x1
t27049215, Taiwan x2
unixdeveloper, USA x1
nik.d, Serbia x1
markus22ch, Switzerland X2
whmok, Singapore x1
vitalica x 2
richard_pc, Taiwan x1
Malvin, USA x1
damohpi, AUS x1
Eric06,France x1
sidiropa, Greece x2
miksi, Serbia x1
glt, USA x1
hochopeper, Aus x1
fredlock, USA X1
Galvani, Country ?? X1
bkdog Australia x1
duc985 Germany x 1
opc Canada x 1
AR2 USA x 2
supra X 2
aos Canada x 1
TOTAL :88
yeah I thought about this too, havent modeled anything, i'm putting my money on heat. depends on the specific type fo isolator too I guess.
I love how the voices of reason (or at least grappling with reason) are the ones being painted as heretics lately in an area that is about as tweakable by ear, as Kimchee is delicious with icecream. perhaps we should just discuss the various flip-flops and their effects on sound-stage, digital glare and the air around instruments?
I thought this was a technical forum
anyway this is best for a new thread, its getting to me though.
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you can do that with a tape player, or a megaphone
I was lumbering under the impression that we were basing build technique on the best technology appropriate to its part in reproducing music
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