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Old 29th January 2013, 01:43 AM   #321
deanoUK is offline deanoUK  United Kingdom
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Strange things happen in audio.
You never know.
I have paid for 4 boards, so at least I have comfort in isolation .
If not isolation from the group
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Old 29th January 2013, 01:48 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KlipschKid View Post
So Russ is saying, for Es9018, re-clocking is at best pointless, and can actually reduce sound quality ? Cancel the group buy ?


Holy over-reaction batman.

Not quite. He's stating his experience much the same as others have stated their experience with other gear. All of these experiments are not guaranteed panacea to all of your ills, just an option that may bring auditory bliss to your ears, find the best combo for you that statisfies your technical requirements. Each of us is on our own journey.

He found something that *might* be similar to be detrimental to his experience, with his system, with his DAC (we don't know exact technical details of what he did try).




Did everyone have the same reaction when people said that ebay ESS pcbs were going to be detrimental and reduce sound quality?
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Old 29th January 2013, 01:58 AM   #323
deanoUK is offline deanoUK  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
old ESS news, not a specific TP product feature (i've seen this intriguing presentation long ago). and we are left to decuce that is why there hasnt been any actual development of a dual or synchronous clocking scheme? while the rest of the DIY and quite a lot of commercial ESS dacs have been gravitating towards syncronous clocking schemes for the ESS dac. his stance is that the ESS is perfect as it is, some of us disagree

do remember that the reference clock can be anything, using the onboard buff clock is just a suggested experiment
Seems to be ESS's opinion.

Syncing the transport data stream to a "better" clock I think has no downside.

Crippling the 9108 ASRC by tying the data stream to 9018 MCLK seems a no no.

Using 9018 MCLK that is an exact multiple of FS facinates me.

Still willing to experiment/listen.
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Old 29th January 2013, 02:32 AM   #324
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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in the same way its ESS opinion that the dac is 100% impervious to jitter, many very rational 'objective' people found this NOT to be the case, particularly on BCK.

like I said, old news, glad you mentioned 'better' clock in inverted commas, because it really isnt anymore. making the transport clock the same as the dac clock which is synchronous and lower jitter seems cleaner to me, better than a PLL IMO. just because the DPLL has nothing to do doesnt not mean anything is degraded...for instance if there is nothing to do....

interested to listen to this No No, I mean apart from what the ESS documentation says? people have replaced the ESS internal digital filter with more powerful software and FPGA based filters too; the internal ones are not really very powerful by todays standards.

its still the best DAC chip I know of, when used for purely DAC functions, but many of its one size fits all solutions have been outmoded IMO.

externalizing processes that have evolved over the last 4 years since the ESS was released, by replacing with in many cases superior designs is progress IMO, at the very least its interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanoUK View Post
Seems to be ESS's opinion.

Syncing the transport data stream to a "better" clock I think has no downside.

Crippling the 9108 ASRC by tying the data stream to 9018 MCLK seems a no no.

Using 9018 MCLK that is an exact multiple of FS facinates me.

Still willing to experiment/listen.
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Old 29th January 2013, 02:35 AM   #325
glt is offline glt  United States
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I think the problem arises from reclocking with an asynchronous clock (eg the 100 MHz clock) but reclocking with a synchronous clock (eg the Amanero clock) will still clean up the I2S signal clocks and will allow the ES9018 to lock better.
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Last edited by glt; 29th January 2013 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 29th January 2013, 02:42 AM   #326
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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hochopeper, I think (hope) KK was being facetious
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Old 29th January 2013, 02:45 AM   #327
opc is offline opc  Canada
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I'll post measurements when I get mine with the following configurations:

- Amanero direct to ESS DAC (BUFF II)
- Amanero - Isolation - ESS DAC (BUFF II)
- Amanero - Isolation - reclock (Potato) - ESS DAC (BUFF II)

I personally expect the isolation to improve slightly over the direct (improved noise floor), but I expect no difference with the reclock given the nature of the ESS input.

I'm going to toss two things out there:

1. Hopefully everyone realizes that the jitter artifacts we're talking about reducing are already manifested at roughly -150dB in the analog domain. This is with a standard 9018 DAC - nothing fancy. In this regard, I agree with Russ in saying "if it ain't broke, don't' fix it.". There are probably bigger gremlins in your playback chain.

2. The things Russ says seem to carry an incredible amount of weight given that they are seldom (if ever) backed up by measurements or any other form of proof. The following quote should have alarm bells going off in your head:

"After a while I noticed that the sound was actually worse… less precise, kinda murky. It sounded like jitter… ouch."

It's like something straight from the pages of your favorite audiophile rag.

I can't believe advanced digital design is still being evaluated like this... it makes me shake my head in shame for audiophiles everywhere.

I'll report back when I've got some actual data to backup my guesses...

Cheers,
Owen
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Old 29th January 2013, 03:09 AM   #328
glt is offline glt  United States
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I know he (Russ) likes beer a lot :-)
Separately, now I think I know what you meant by 99% perfection on the other thread...
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Last edited by glt; 29th January 2013 at 03:12 AM.
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Old 29th January 2013, 03:11 AM   #329
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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Owen, my 2 channel fully tricked out fifo may be laying idle for a while at some point in the near future, would you be interested to test this also? Ian has got some very nice digital logic and jitter analyzer that proved the jitter is ridiculously low, but his analogue gear and FFT ability is not up to snuff for the gear we are playing with. It would be great to have a datapoint from you also, that included the harmonic and temporal content of the signal. So testing the output of the ESS with and without. thats if Ian agrees to that too, but I would think he would be interested also.

it would require you set up proper termination and of course sync connections on the dac for best results.

as far as the noise floor, sure i'm aware of how low the noise floor is, but its my feeling that this is more a temporal AND frequency based difference that may not show up so well with averaging, if you know what I mean (if that even makes sense).

None of this keeps me awake at night, no more than squeezing the last few dB out of your amps that are already orders of magnitude better than the dacs and speakers/headphones they connect to, does for yourself. Flirting with the unattainable perfection can be fun and interesting.

however I really have found that Synchronous clocking with ESS with fifo (even without the galvanic isolator) is preferable, I dont know why, but I dont feel bad because it is also technically superior. I would be interested to see that 'gut' feeling tested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc
The following quote should have alarm bells going off in your head
alarm bells would not be discordant enough

Last edited by qusp; 29th January 2013 at 03:17 AM.
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Old 29th January 2013, 03:25 AM   #330
acko is offline acko  Australia
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The primary function of this re-clocker is to clean up the signals after going through an isolation process. In the standard mode the REF clock (RCK) can be completely independent of the DAC Master Clock and the ESS DAC will have no idea of a second clock, so it is completely Asynchronous. If this brings out the best then we rest the case.

But as always there are other modes of operation like tying the REF clock (RCK) to the DAC MCLK or other combinations and see what happens. If we get better results, this is bonus.

Some of us have tried synchronous clocking and found benefits regardless of what ESS or TPA say or reckon. Opinion from 100 people with real results from actual physical devices will form an better statistical average then a few audio cognoscenti.
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