GB NP matched Toshiba 2SK1530/2SK201 for F5X

buzzforb · 2012-04-21 8:00 pm

I should have my matching setup up and running at the beginning of the week. EUVL and others can say yes or no to it.

EDIT:
Murphy's Law says bet on 1000 pairs.

pchw · 2012-04-21 8:48 pm

Thanks for your input, Patrick.

I will add another option then:

Tender the non NP matched devices at discounted price to Patrick. This will certainly reduce the cost to everyone.

AndrewT · 2012-04-22 9:54 am

I do not think we have any realistic hope of getting N to P matching.

If we are very lucky then we might get the N groups in the same Vgs band as the P groups.

I think we should go for NN PP NN PP for one stereo amplifier. That should give an acceptable yield.

EUVL · 2012-04-22 10:37 am

> I do not think we have any realistic hope of getting N to P matching.

That depends on what you classify a match. I consider 50mV N-P still a good match.
In any case still better than a random set of matched NN & PP.
Of course the closer the N-P Vgs the better.

The test team will take the task to evaluate N-P mismatch and propose solutions if necessary.
But this will take time. (Not before Davide leaves Japan.)

> I think we should go for NN PP NN PP for one stereo amplifier. That should give an acceptable yield.

That will give you very good yield with 1000 devices in total.

Patrick

johnwmclean · 2012-04-25 9:47 pm

If you don't remove other's names...

First, update the list:
NicMac 8 pairs (2 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP x 2)
CanAm Man 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ramallo 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
oneaclock 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
andrewt 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
Studley 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ashaw 8 stereo sets? (NNNNPPPP x 8 ??)
triode4 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
heinz1 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Mravinsky 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
JBdV 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)
smyslow 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
APK 12 pairs (3 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Horio 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Westley 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
alazira 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
pmchoong 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
CeeVee 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
lhquam 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
flg 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ichiban 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
daanve 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)
johnwmclean 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)

To all potential participants, you can copy the list and append your name
or edit your entry.

buzzforb · 2012-04-25 9:49 pm

First, update the list:
NicMac 8 pairs (2 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP x 2)
CanAm Man 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ramallo 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
oneaclock 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
andrewt 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
Studley 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ashaw 8 stereo sets? (NNNNPPPP x 8 ??)
triode4 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
heinz1 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Mravinsky 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
JBdV 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)
smyslow 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
APK 12 pairs (3 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Horio 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Westley 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
alazira 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
pmchoong 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
CeeVee 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
lhquam 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
flg 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ichiban 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
daanve 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)
johnwmclean 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
buzzforb 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)

To all potential participants, you can copy the list and append your name
or edit your entry.

AndrewT · 2012-04-25 10:51 pm

Do we have a provisional cost as delivered to GB Members?

NicMac · 2012-04-25 11:31 pm

Do we have somebody reliable with the time and capacity to accurately measure 500+500 devices in a fairly short time period? If necessary for a reasonable monetary gain.

To me this is really the problem that needs to be solved....

If we do have such a person, I would be happy to sponsor the enterprise.

Cheers,

Nic

buzzforb · 2012-04-25 11:43 pm

As I said, I will match them. The conditions of the final match must be clearly stated before hand, along with possible alternative scenarios if the matching does not yield well. I question if 500 pairs will be enough, from what i have read, and so there must be an understanding that more may be needed. I cannot do it for free, as I have a life with 4 kids and a wife, and cannot take time from that for nothing. I am more than willing to have my fee openly discussed and approved by others. If I am to bankroll the operation, I get final say in all matters except the GB price, which will be set forward before hand, as stated above. If I bankroll it, there may be a delay, as I have another such operation underway. I hope to have pics and details of my matching rig by the end of the week. I am open to whatever and more than happy just to buy a set.

bkdog · 2012-04-26 12:23 am

2 lists?

buzzforb said:
First, update the list:
NicMac 8 pairs (2 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP x 2)
CanAm Man 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ramallo 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
oneaclock 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
andrewt 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
Studley 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ashaw 8 stereo sets? (NNNNPPPP x 8 ??)
triode4 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
heinz1 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Mravinsky 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
JBdV 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)
smyslow 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
APK 12 pairs (3 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Horio 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Westley 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
alazira 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
pmchoong 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
CeeVee 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
lhquam 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
flg 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ichiban 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
daanve 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)
johnwmclean 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
buzzforb 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)

To all potential participants, you can copy the list and append your name
or edit your entry.

Post 1 links to this google doc:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At-IdAjZ9Al3dFpjVUNNQnBGRXhaYkJQQ3FNVmxqN0E#gid=0 which dows not seem to match the list above...

I may not be the only one confused by this. Anyway, the above list is here and now I'm on both.

NicMac 8 pairs (2 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP x 2)
CanAm Man 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ramallo 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
oneaclock 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
andrewt 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
Studley 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ashaw 8 stereo sets? (NNNNPPPP x 8 ??)
triode4 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
heinz1 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Mravinsky 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
JBdV 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)
smyslow 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
APK 12 pairs (3 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Horio 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Westley 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
alazira 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
pmchoong 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
CeeVee 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
lhquam 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
flg 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ichiban 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
daanve 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)
johnwmclean 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
buzzforb 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
bkdog 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)

AndrewT · 2012-04-26 10:29 am

NicMac 8 pairs (2 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP x 2)
CanAm Man 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ramallo 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
oneaclock 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
andrewt 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NN NN PP PP)triple point + possibly 20NN and 20PP single point
Studley 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ashaw 8 stereo sets? (NNNNPPPP x 8 ??)
triode4 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
heinz1 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Mravinsky 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
JBdV 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)
smyslow 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
APK 12 pairs (3 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Horio 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Westley 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
alazira 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
pmchoong 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
CeeVee 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
lhquam 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
flg 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ichiban 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
daanve 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)
johnwmclean 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
buzzforb 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
bkdog 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)

pchw · 2012-04-26 4:40 pm

There is a Google spreadsheet set up, see post #1.
It is easier to manage there than copy, edit, & paste, but it will be the GB organizer/leader choice what works the best for him. Also feel free to add additional columns for different type of matched sets.

Current number of F5X sets are 46.

EUVL · 2012-04-27 5:14 am

Give it a day or two.

You will get a GB leader, and maybe also someone who is willing to curve trace match using my equipment.
Alexis already volunteered to do data processing after measurements.

You are a real lucky lot.

Patrick

Ghumbs · 2012-04-27 5:54 pm

Please add me to the list for 1 stereo set. Thanks!

ashaw · 2012-04-27 8:23 pm

Patrick, If we were to have curve trace data, then do you think that it would be possible to have Degenerated matches, that is matches that exist with changes to the sense resistors (i.e. with a resistor in parallel with the fuku) if so then would this allow us to get better performance and matches then without them.

EUVL · 2012-04-28 6:09 am

There is no need or no advantage for a degenerated match.
The degenerated performance you can calculate using a spread sheet.
Match without degen is more sensitive and hence will allow you to pick a match pair more accurately.

We use a Isabellehütten PBV 0R1 on heatsink as reference resistor to measure current.
You cannot get a better power resistor, even in comparison with Caddock MP9100, ...., etc.
See :

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...rch-preamplifier-part-ii-453.html#post2996814

Patrick

PS You will then ask why I did not choose this for the amp.
I want to use the Fuku's higher positive tempco to compensate for the MOSFET and hence enhance bias stability.

vitalica · 2012-04-28 9:32 am

NicMac 8 pairs (2 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP x 2)
CanAm Man 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ramallo 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
oneaclock 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
andrewt 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NN NN PP PP)triple point + possibly 20NN and 20PP single point
Studley 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ashaw 8 stereo sets? (NNNNPPPP x 8 ??)
triode4 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
heinz1 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Mravinsky 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
JBdV 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)
smyslow 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
APK 12 pairs (3 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Horio 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
Westley 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
alazira 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
pmchoong 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
CeeVee 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
lhquam 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
flg 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
ichiban 4 pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
daanve 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)
johnwmclean 4 pairs (1 stereo F5X) (NNNNPPPP)
buzzforb 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
bkdog 4 Pairs (1 stereo FX5) (NNNNPPPP)
vitalica 8 pairs for 2 F5X (NNNNPPPP x 2)

buzzforb · 2012-04-28 11:14 am

EUVL said:
There is no need or no advantage for a degenerated match.
The degenerated performance you can calculate using a spread sheet.
Match without degen is more sensitive and hence will allow you to pick a match pair more accurately.

We use a Isabellehütten PBV 0R1 on heatsink as reference resistor to measure current.
You cannot get a better power resistor, even in comparison with Caddock MP9100, ...., etc.
See :

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...rch-preamplifier-part-ii-453.html#post2996814

Patrick

PS You will then ask why I did not choose this for the amp.
I want to use the Fuku's higher positive tempco to compensate for the MOSFET and hence enhance bias stability.

I really have to start following that thread. A wealth of info can be foun there. He didnt talk about how they t,sounded though: D

buzzforb · 2012-04-28 11:52 am

EUVL,
could you explain the tempco value of a resistor and how it affects response? Perhaps this would clarify for some you explanation above over resistor choice. Of course i mean explain to me.

EUVL · 2012-04-28 1:23 pm

Consider total voltage across gate-source and source resistor at 25°C and 60°C at 2A current.
There are sufficient information in datasheet of MOSFET and resistor to allow you to make estimations.

Patrick

GB NP matched Toshiba 2SK1530/2SK201 for F5X

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