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Old 16th February 2012, 05:03 AM   #51
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A lot of enthusiasm was fueled by a "mid-December" post. That has now crept into something happening in "mid-March". I would hesitate to speculate what that will be.

Responsibilities to paid (50% deposit) customers seem to be non-existent when they have a product which is in such demand. Future prospects take note.

The link, here: Acoustic Elegance • View topic - ** Official TD Woofer Group Buy Information **
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Old 28th February 2012, 03:43 PM   #52
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No report as of yesterday for parts leaving China. Add 6-8 weeks from that occurrence for US arrival.
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Old 28th February 2012, 04:27 PM   #53
Pallas is offline Pallas  Pakistan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed LaFontaine View Post
A lot of enthusiasm was fueled by a "mid-December" post. That has now crept into something happening in "mid-March". I would hesitate to speculate what that will be.

Responsibilities to paid (50% deposit) customers seem to be non-existent when they have a product which is in such demand. Future prospects take note.

The link, here: Acoustic Elegance • View topic - ** Official TD Woofer Group Buy Information **
Realistically, time of delivery will slip a few more times. I thought when the GB was on that a reasonable expectation (given past performance) would be early-mid 2013.

Pity, because by all accounts the drivers are excellent. Overhyped, perhaps, given the AE drivers' rarity and the excellence of recent similar-sized drivers by B&C and BMS as confirmed by Dickason's measurements in Voice Coil, but still excellent.
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Old 28th February 2012, 05:55 PM   #54
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The issue with the chinese shipment is unfortunate. It is unfortunately a fact of business. IMO, you had to be a little naive to go into this thinking that wouldn't be a possibility. I'm referring to both the buyers and John himself. Supplier issues like this occur all the time. It is even tougher with foreign suppliers and IME even worse with Chinese suppliers (not a knock on the Chinese, but there is sometimes more variance whether due to language issues or sometimes less established companies).

John should have been more cautious with his delivery estimate especially given this was his first time going this route. This group buy and its excellent pricing was contingent on the Chinese order. There is significant risk tied up in that single point of failure.

DIYCable got stuck with a bad supplier and it put them under. If AE had a peer in the market, something like this would kill them too. Everyone would have demanded their money in return and gone with company X. The reality is that there is no peer that I know of. There are other good drivers, but they are either far more expensive or inferior even if it is only slight. This also hasn't been a catastrophic issue but a delay.

I bought into the GB and I basically expected something like this. I'm not particularly put out by it, but I'm sure others are. The only thing I would change would be with John's communication. From the start he should have disclaimed the possibility of delays. From there he should have communicated the status of delays.

Pallas, which BMS and B&C drivers are you referring to? Do you have links to the tests?
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Old 28th February 2012, 06:23 PM   #55
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My experience is that China is more equipped to manufacture and produce and spit it over the continents than any other country. Given, I've never tried to have a speaker assembled. They have tons of electronics and manufactering surplus given they put almost everything together over there.

I can attest that John's drivers are worth the wait, and do what they are supposed to. But I am not sure all excuses that he has are good.
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Old 28th February 2012, 06:55 PM   #56
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My experience is that China is more equipped to manufacture and produce and spit it over the continents than any other country. Given, I've never tried to have a speaker assembled. They have tons of electronics and manufactering surplus given they put almost everything together over there.

I can attest that John's drivers are worth the wait, and do what they are supposed to. But I am not sure all excuses that he has are good.
I agree that China can be excellent, but for a small guy like John it can be rough. The issue is that a tiny company like AE has no recourse similar to what happened with DIYCable. If the manufacturer changes schedules AE just has to eat it. If the manufacturer botches the quality and the entire order is DOA a company like DIYCable is stuck holding the bill (I don't believe his build house compensated him for his troubles but I could be wrong). If they were dealing with US companies they would both have legal recourse. This helps ensure that this is less likely and gives them an out when it does happen.

That is part of the savings of going through China for a small buyer. It is a bit more "wild west" for the small guys. Massive electronics companies are in a completely different realm and their order sizes basically give them recourse.

Given that, John has been left out to dry by a supplier before with his AV subwoofers. AE is not likely run as well it could be, I have no doubt about that. I would love to see it managed and funded better, but what I really want are world beating woofers for a good price and I will get that eventually.

This is also partly a function of just being a small guy. I have a background in auto racing and getting an engine built can be a messy transaction for an individual. Machine shops tend to push the small customers to the back of the line and finish the big guys stuff first. I've rarely seen a motor done for a good price and for an individual buyer that was done on time. This is even with local companies where there is recourse and you can knock on their door and complain. It is just reality.

There is a bit of Hoffman's law at play here. Cheap, on-time and high quality. Pick two.
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Old 28th February 2012, 07:00 PM   #57
Pallas is offline Pallas  Pakistan
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post
Pallas, which BMS and B&C drivers are you referring to? Do you have links to the tests?
The following have been tested within the last year by Dickason in Voicecoil and impressed me with their motor and suspension linearity:

BMS 18N862: clean impedance plot till past 1kHz, broad symmetrical BL(x) and Kms(x) past 15mm, well-centered coil, cone breakup a bit over 1kHz. 25 Voice Coil 4 (Feb 2012), at 18-23.

BMS 15N850v: a couple impedance wrinkes (200Hz, above 1kHz) but textbook BL(x) and Kms(x), and tiny Le(x) variation along with tiny Le level (0.6 > Le > 0.7mH over about 30mm of travel). 25 Voicecoil 3 (Jan 2012), at 20-23

B&C 18SW100-8: pretty clean impedance, with small wrinkles at ~50Hz and ~2kHz, and the more-or-less textbook BL(x) and Kms(x) curves, and centering, that all of their drivers seem to have. Also, ~0.1mH Le(x) variation. 22 Voice Coil 10 (Oct. 2010), at 22-26.

By contrast, some 18Sound and Faital drivers looked less impressive. There was also a Faital woofer that looked good, but I can't find the piece right now.

I do not know if the tests are available to non-subscribers.

Now, a dozen-odd years ago when Nick McKinney designed them, they might have had better motors than most anything widely available except for, arguably, a few JBL's. (Suspension linearity seems no better than most, and not as good as some of the top-tier European drivers.) But it's not the 1990s any more...
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Old 28th February 2012, 08:32 PM   #58
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Those BMS's look great and I love the B&C 21SWxxx line so I'm sure the 18 is great too, but those are really not direct competitors to most of the AE line which can be used as low midranges up to 1-2khz depending on the speaker. For pro audio subwoofer and midbass duty, those are great options. I've never used a BMS woofer but I'd imagine they are great.

I do agree that for the low bass and midbass regions, there are many excellent options, but it is tougher if you are looking for something that does extremely well in the low-midrange all the way down to the midbass.
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Old 1st March 2012, 03:10 PM   #59
Pallas is offline Pallas  Pakistan
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post
Those BMS's look great and I love the B&C 21SWxxx line so I'm sure the 18 is great too, but those are really not direct competitors to most of the AE line which can be used as low midranges up to 1-2khz depending on the speaker.
True. However, the samples of B&C and BMS drivers for which we have third-party data all look like master classes in drive-unit engineering.

One could reasonably expect their drivers designed to play higher to perform similarly superbly.
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Old 1st March 2012, 03:51 PM   #60
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True. However, the samples of B&C and BMS drivers for which we have third-party data all look like master classes in drive-unit engineering.

One could reasonably expect their drivers designed to play higher to perform similarly superbly.
I don't know of any 15" BMS woofers that will play cleanly up to 1500-2000hz. The B&C 15TBX100 is the only option from those guys and it gets pretty ugly past 1khz. I'm not suggesting a crossover at 2khz, but I'd prefer nice performance beyond the crossover point like the AE drivers give you. JBL has a few but they are very expensive. I believe the TD15 drivers were selling for $310 full price and $220 at group buy prices. $220 is in the budget driver range. That is in the Eminence, no shorting ring range and is like comparing a Dodge to a Ferrari.

If you are only looking for the midbass woofers (30-500hz) then there are a bunch of options.
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