Hi All,
I have had my TDA1541A Reference Dac up and running for over a month now, so i feel its time to share my view on this dac...
Here is the equipment i use with the dac:
Digital Source : Squeezebox Touch (with Soundcheck's Mods)
Pre Amp : Lightspeed with DCB1 (Hotrod)
Power Amp : Wad Kat 34 (running with KT77's)
Speakers : Wd25t ex
Previous cd players include:
Meridian 506
Marantz CD75 with Lampizator Output stage
Cambridge Audio 840c
Ok so what do i think of the Dac...after all thats what you all want to know!!! Well let me tell you my initial impressions first. When i heard this dac for the very first time, i thought it sounded very smooth, effortless, like it could never annoy or offend the listener, but after 20 mins of listening i started to feel disapointed, i asked myself where was the amazing dynamics, the bass to me was not good at all, while it was tuneful it seemed to lack impact, sure it all sounded very detailed but something was missing, i could tell that it had alot of potential, but it sounded like it was holding back, not letting go, the music was just not flowing. Closed in was a word i remember coming to mind. Anyway i remembered that practically all the components on this dac were brand new and needed time to burn in, also from past experience with the Salas shunts, they also sound much better when they have had a few hours on them...and i remembered the words of Lucas Adamson, which seemed to match my initial thoughts..that this dac had potential but was lacking something.
Let me tell you that this dac needs considerable burn in time...
As the days and weeks passed by this dac started to open out, no longer did it sound closed in, soundstage opened up and felt huge, this is a very transparent dac, it sounds like you are transported into the same room the band is playing in. There is bags of detail, yet my inital thoughts were correct in that it never annoy's the listener, there is no listening fatigue with this dac. The dynamics are amazing and the bass is tuneful and controlled having more impact then before. To me the improvement in the bass department took the longest to happen, the opening out of the sound improved first then the dynamics got better and better but the bass took the longest to happen. If i had to discribe this dac in 3 words i would say, Effortless, Detailed and Transparent no hang on Dynamic, Smooth and Musical, oh i give up it is very difficult to discribe in words what i feel when i hear this dac i dont think you can describe it in 3 words, it is just very very good and i am very very happy with this dac, so in short if you build this dac dont expect it to sound great straight away, give it time though and you will be rewarded with REAL MUSIC.
Not long ago, i added a 0.1 Teflon FT-3 bypass cap to the 1uf Vref cap in the HV Salas shunt..this also brought about a nice improvment, easiest way for me to describe the improvement is that there was a touch more detail and everything in the soundstage made more sense.
So what next, well i am keeping a very close eye on Oliver's Hybrid Power Supply
and i also want to try getting rid of the Tl431's and feed the Dac direct with the Salas Shunts.
So all that is left for me to say is a VERY BIG THANKS to Oliver for making this all possible, for his help and continued support, also thanks to Salas for his wonderful Shunt supplies, thanks to EcDesigns for his designs of the attenuator and dem clock and his support, thanks to Thorsten Loech for sharing his knowledge and idea's in this dac and to anyone else i may of missed.
Alon
I have had my TDA1541A Reference Dac up and running for over a month now, so i feel its time to share my view on this dac...
Here is the equipment i use with the dac:
Digital Source : Squeezebox Touch (with Soundcheck's Mods)
Pre Amp : Lightspeed with DCB1 (Hotrod)
Power Amp : Wad Kat 34 (running with KT77's)
Speakers : Wd25t ex
Previous cd players include:
Meridian 506
Marantz CD75 with Lampizator Output stage
Cambridge Audio 840c
Ok so what do i think of the Dac...after all thats what you all want to know!!! Well let me tell you my initial impressions first. When i heard this dac for the very first time, i thought it sounded very smooth, effortless, like it could never annoy or offend the listener, but after 20 mins of listening i started to feel disapointed, i asked myself where was the amazing dynamics, the bass to me was not good at all, while it was tuneful it seemed to lack impact, sure it all sounded very detailed but something was missing, i could tell that it had alot of potential, but it sounded like it was holding back, not letting go, the music was just not flowing. Closed in was a word i remember coming to mind. Anyway i remembered that practically all the components on this dac were brand new and needed time to burn in, also from past experience with the Salas shunts, they also sound much better when they have had a few hours on them...and i remembered the words of Lucas Adamson, which seemed to match my initial thoughts..that this dac had potential but was lacking something.
Let me tell you that this dac needs considerable burn in time...
As the days and weeks passed by this dac started to open out, no longer did it sound closed in, soundstage opened up and felt huge, this is a very transparent dac, it sounds like you are transported into the same room the band is playing in. There is bags of detail, yet my inital thoughts were correct in that it never annoy's the listener, there is no listening fatigue with this dac. The dynamics are amazing and the bass is tuneful and controlled having more impact then before. To me the improvement in the bass department took the longest to happen, the opening out of the sound improved first then the dynamics got better and better but the bass took the longest to happen. If i had to discribe this dac in 3 words i would say, Effortless, Detailed and Transparent no hang on Dynamic, Smooth and Musical, oh i give up it is very difficult to discribe in words what i feel when i hear this dac i dont think you can describe it in 3 words, it is just very very good and i am very very happy with this dac, so in short if you build this dac dont expect it to sound great straight away, give it time though and you will be rewarded with REAL MUSIC.
Not long ago, i added a 0.1 Teflon FT-3 bypass cap to the 1uf Vref cap in the HV Salas shunt..this also brought about a nice improvment, easiest way for me to describe the improvement is that there was a touch more detail and everything in the soundstage made more sense.
So what next, well i am keeping a very close eye on Oliver's Hybrid Power Supply
and i also want to try getting rid of the Tl431's and feed the Dac direct with the Salas Shunts.So all that is left for me to say is a VERY BIG THANKS to Oliver for making this all possible, for his help and continued support, also thanks to Salas for his wonderful Shunt supplies, thanks to EcDesigns for his designs of the attenuator and dem clock and his support, thanks to Thorsten Loech for sharing his knowledge and idea's in this dac and to anyone else i may of missed.
Alon
Help and advice request:
My next step with this DAC is not a step towards higher and higher purity, but improved functionality for me, a laptop user, whose DAC can't use longer than a 2m USB cable.
I loved using my Airport Express which I have owned for 6 or 7 years now. It is amazing when used with optical out to a DAC, (rather than using the tiny opamp DAC that is tightly built into it.) I could sit with my Macbook Pro on my lap, cleanly beaming the digital signal across the rooms to the DAC, and it sounded great.
With this TDA1541A DAC, so far I only have the Teralink USB to I2s converter, which is great but a) can't read signals from longer USB cables and b) has no optical input to my DAC to enable use of the Airport Express. This leaves me with very few options:
1. Buy Twisted Pear SPDIF to I2S module and TOSLINK to SPDIF module and power supply. $100 but perhaps not the cleanest signal going.
2. Ideally, work out how to mod Airport Express to get I2s directly out of it, bypassing the need to go to SPDIF at all. How likely is this unit to have accessible I2s inside? Anybody?
3. Find an alternative WI-fi router that has a USB output to the Teralink. Any suggestions?
4. Buy dedicated (cheap) laptop to sit on my stereo and feed USB, like a fancy jukebox.
Any help and advice greatly appreciated.
Lucas
My next step with this DAC is not a step towards higher and higher purity, but improved functionality for me, a laptop user, whose DAC can't use longer than a 2m USB cable.
I loved using my Airport Express which I have owned for 6 or 7 years now. It is amazing when used with optical out to a DAC, (rather than using the tiny opamp DAC that is tightly built into it.) I could sit with my Macbook Pro on my lap, cleanly beaming the digital signal across the rooms to the DAC, and it sounded great.
With this TDA1541A DAC, so far I only have the Teralink USB to I2s converter, which is great but a) can't read signals from longer USB cables and b) has no optical input to my DAC to enable use of the Airport Express. This leaves me with very few options:
1. Buy Twisted Pear SPDIF to I2S module and TOSLINK to SPDIF module and power supply. $100 but perhaps not the cleanest signal going.
2. Ideally, work out how to mod Airport Express to get I2s directly out of it, bypassing the need to go to SPDIF at all. How likely is this unit to have accessible I2s inside? Anybody?
3. Find an alternative WI-fi router that has a USB output to the Teralink. Any suggestions?
4. Buy dedicated (cheap) laptop to sit on my stereo and feed USB, like a fancy jukebox.
Any help and advice greatly appreciated.
Lucas
Hi Lucas,
look here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/136805-music-server-improved-apple-airport-express.html.
This should solve your problem
BTW, i am running my MAC (OSX 10.6.6) with a 5m USB cable to the USB-Isolator without problems.
Oliver
@Malka07
Thanks for the reporting, that lifts my spirits on finally finishing this thing. I have just developed and manfuctured a pcb for the discrete output stage this weekend... only waiting for some parts now...
It surprises me a bit that you characterise the dac as being very transparent. The tda1541 (especially in NOS mode) is not really known for this feature, more for warmth/analog feel.
Thanks for the reporting, that lifts my spirits on finally finishing this thing. I have just developed and manfuctured a pcb for the discrete output stage this weekend... only waiting for some parts now...
It surprises me a bit that you characterise the dac as being very transparent. The tda1541 (especially in NOS mode) is not really known for this feature, more for warmth/analog feel.
Hi Studiostevus,
By transparent I mean, it is as if you are looking out of a window that has just been cleaned, no dirt obscuring or distorting your view. This is noticeable on good recordings, also as in my previous post, this takes a while to happen. But now that you mention it, yes it's also very analogue sounding.
Congratulations on completing your dac..what output stage did you decide on? Looking forward to hearing your subjective findings
Alon
Well... Still have to complete and test the output when the parts arrive. I decided to go for Pedja Rogic' discrete output. It ain't over until the fat lady sings...
...which is actually a perfect nickname for the dac, with its 135000 capacitance, 6 salas regulators, and 2 tda's.
"The fat lady"
...which is actually a perfect nickname for the dac, with its 135000 capacitance, 6 salas regulators, and 2 tda's.
"The fat lady"
Nice nickname
Perhaps we should find one for my DAC project
Any other proposals ? Nice nickname
Perhaps we should find one for my DAC project
I think it should be called the
Dvb Dac-1
Jeez, how many "DAC-1"s are there in the world?
I like "The Fat Lady". It sounds like a good name for a beautiful wooden boat. The only problem for me is it creates an image in my mind of a rather horribly obese woman, not the opera singer you perhaps had in mind.
So, we need a name with allusions to:
German, Phillips, DIYAudio, Oliver, Salas, Lukas "Lampizator" Fikus, TDA1541a, 6N6P, LARGENESS....etc
Consider:
"The Olivator" hehe
Also, because the main designers of the DAC's main features come from Greece (Salas), Holland (TDA1541a), Poland (Lukas Fikus), Germany (Oliver), Russia (6N6P), (and ignoring for a second that most of the parts are made (and also perhaps designed) in Japan and China) it is notable that this is a very European DAC.
"EuroDAC"???
On the other hand, the name Oliver means:
Oliver \o-li-ver\ as a boy's name is pronounced AH-lih-ver. It is of Latin origin, and the meaning of Oliver is "olive tree". Name of one of Charlemagne's knights in the 12th-century poem "Chanson de Roland". Also possibly from Alfihar (Old German) "host of elves" or Olafr (Old Norse) "ancestor". Biblical: the olive tree is a symbol of fruitfulness, beauty, and dignity. Today "extending an olive branch" traditionally signifies an offer of peace. Literary: the title character in Dickens' "Oliver Twist". Film director Oliver Stone; actor Oliver Platt.
Note that in old norse, Olafr means "ancestor" which is indeed relevant because this DAC uses a trusty old DAC, the ancestor of all others (except 1540, but that can be used in this DAC without issue) so we are dealing with the "Abraham", the ancestor of all DACs.
So I will be naming it in honour of the ancient "common ancestor" DAC chip and also the most helpful Oliver in realising this project...
Olafr - the ancestor DAC
I like "The Fat Lady". It sounds like a good name for a beautiful wooden boat. The only problem for me is it creates an image in my mind of a rather horribly obese woman, not the opera singer you perhaps had in mind.
So, we need a name with allusions to:
German, Phillips, DIYAudio, Oliver, Salas, Lukas "Lampizator" Fikus, TDA1541a, 6N6P, LARGENESS....etc
Consider:
"The Olivator" hehe
Also, because the main designers of the DAC's main features come from Greece (Salas), Holland (TDA1541a), Poland (Lukas Fikus), Germany (Oliver), Russia (6N6P), (and ignoring for a second that most of the parts are made (and also perhaps designed) in Japan and China) it is notable that this is a very European DAC.
"EuroDAC"???
On the other hand, the name Oliver means:
Oliver \o-li-ver\ as a boy's name is pronounced AH-lih-ver. It is of Latin origin, and the meaning of Oliver is "olive tree". Name of one of Charlemagne's knights in the 12th-century poem "Chanson de Roland". Also possibly from Alfihar (Old German) "host of elves" or Olafr (Old Norse) "ancestor". Biblical: the olive tree is a symbol of fruitfulness, beauty, and dignity. Today "extending an olive branch" traditionally signifies an offer of peace. Literary: the title character in Dickens' "Oliver Twist". Film director Oliver Stone; actor Oliver Platt.
Note that in old norse, Olafr means "ancestor" which is indeed relevant because this DAC uses a trusty old DAC, the ancestor of all others (except 1540, but that can be used in this DAC without issue) so we are dealing with the "Abraham", the ancestor of all DACs.
So I will be naming it in honour of the ancient "common ancestor" DAC chip and also the most helpful Oliver in realising this project...
Olafr - the ancestor DAC
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Jesus Christ...What a brainstorming. Chapeau! 
That´s a cool naming: Olafr - the ancestor DAC
UPDATE
On wednesday i spent most of the day removing the tl431 shunt section from both my Dac Boards, then i Cut the boards in order to make the connections from Salas Shunts to Dac Boards Short, Drilled some holes in the boards to Mount the boards ontop of each other and to chassis. And then Spent a long time problem solving why things were not working...
Here is a picture of the modified Boards and a list of things i had to do to get it all working.
On the picture you can see numbers 1-4
Here i will describe what they are.
1) This connection (yellow line) needed to be added to supply the -15v through the 2k2 resistors to pins 16,17 of the tda1541a dac chip
2/3) Because the board was cut the Red Ground lines(3) were no longer grounding the Tda1541a Chip, so a connection as indicated by the black line(2) was added.
4) whilst desoldering this tl431, all 3 pins were soldered together on the board causing a short on the salas shunts...it caused a voltage difference of 2v between digital ground and anolog ground...severe hum the result and also when i tried connecting the grounds together (anolog and digital) the +5v(digital) dropped to 3.83v...this was solved eventually by finding the short at the (removed) tl431 pins on board and desoldering so that all pins were seperated.
Soooooo enough of how i did it, how does it sound? is it better then with the tl431 shunts on board? well the answer is a BIG YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
From the first 3 notes coming out of the speakers i knew it was much much better sounding then with the tl431's (this also confirmed by people i played music to, saying 'WOW' out loud within the first 3 notes being played!!!) the soundstage is deeper, wider higher, very 3d sounding, lots of air inbetween instruments, there location is now easily identifiable, detail amazingly has also improved (i thought it was already very detailed) now i hear things i never did before. Even the bass sounds better more tuneful, more in harmony to the rest of the other frequencies, Treble too has improved, cymbals etc sound real...I HIGHLY RECOMMEND Supplying this dac direct with the Salas Shunts. Lucas is right...this Dac (whatever is will eventually be called) Sounds SUBLIME.
So how about the Olafr Sublime Dac...hehehe
OLIVER you HAVE to do this MOD...you will not be dissapointed.
So what next? well next i will cut any traces onboard that are not needed anymore...(will also take more pictures, so that others who want to do this mod can find it more easy to do.
Alon
On wednesday i spent most of the day removing the tl431 shunt section from both my Dac Boards, then i Cut the boards in order to make the connections from Salas Shunts to Dac Boards Short, Drilled some holes in the boards to Mount the boards ontop of each other and to chassis. And then Spent a long time problem solving why things were not working...
Here is a picture of the modified Boards and a list of things i had to do to get it all working.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
On the picture you can see numbers 1-4
Here i will describe what they are.
1) This connection (yellow line) needed to be added to supply the -15v through the 2k2 resistors to pins 16,17 of the tda1541a dac chip
2/3) Because the board was cut the Red Ground lines(3) were no longer grounding the Tda1541a Chip, so a connection as indicated by the black line(2) was added.
4) whilst desoldering this tl431, all 3 pins were soldered together on the board causing a short on the salas shunts...it caused a voltage difference of 2v between digital ground and anolog ground...severe hum the result and also when i tried connecting the grounds together (anolog and digital) the +5v(digital) dropped to 3.83v...this was solved eventually by finding the short at the (removed) tl431 pins on board and desoldering so that all pins were seperated.
Soooooo enough of how i did it, how does it sound? is it better then with the tl431 shunts on board? well the answer is a BIG YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
From the first 3 notes coming out of the speakers i knew it was much much better sounding then with the tl431's (this also confirmed by people i played music to, saying 'WOW' out loud within the first 3 notes being played!!!) the soundstage is deeper, wider higher, very 3d sounding, lots of air inbetween instruments, there location is now easily identifiable, detail amazingly has also improved (i thought it was already very detailed) now i hear things i never did before. Even the bass sounds better more tuneful, more in harmony to the rest of the other frequencies, Treble too has improved, cymbals etc sound real...I HIGHLY RECOMMEND Supplying this dac direct with the Salas Shunts. Lucas is right...this Dac (whatever is will eventually be called) Sounds SUBLIME.
So how about the Olafr Sublime Dac...hehehe
OLIVER you HAVE to do this MOD...you will not be dissapointed.
So what next? well next i will cut any traces onboard that are not needed anymore...(will also take more pictures, so that others who want to do this mod can find it more easy to do.
Alon
Alon - I'm glad you agree that it's a worthwhile mod. Like I said already, I can't say I conducted a fair comparison, because I wasn't burned in at all when I did the mod, but it certainly is quite logical and I'm sure a better DAC for it.
It is a bloody messy business though, I'm sure you'll agree, and not very tidy looking, but also quite possible to make structurally sound.
For anybody wanting to do this mod, you will need to saw your DAC board in half - both of them if you have a twin DAC like me (I used a sliding De-Walt chop-saw to get a lovely clean cut), cut some traces, (I find it satisfying to peel the excess trace off too) scrape the mask a bit over the trace to create a pad and solder onto it, like this:
Ah yes, the two thin blue traces that I have put question marks by - they need to be connected together with the 2x 2.2K resistors, as they are in the original circuit. This image is from when I was asking Oliver to confirm that I was on the right track, and he set me straight about those resistors.
Personally, I removed the master/slave traces, as they're not really necessary at all - you can link the two board's outputs at the main output terminals and reduce signal wire length. Also, I feel with a twin output (parallel) DAC, you really want identical signal lengths, for a correct time constant, though perhaps that's a bit paranoid, seeing as the signals are travelling at the speed of light...
It is a bloody messy business though, I'm sure you'll agree, and not very tidy looking, but also quite possible to make structurally sound.
For anybody wanting to do this mod, you will need to saw your DAC board in half - both of them if you have a twin DAC like me (I used a sliding De-Walt chop-saw to get a lovely clean cut), cut some traces, (I find it satisfying to peel the excess trace off too) scrape the mask a bit over the trace to create a pad and solder onto it, like this:
Ah yes, the two thin blue traces that I have put question marks by - they need to be connected together with the 2x 2.2K resistors, as they are in the original circuit. This image is from when I was asking Oliver to confirm that I was on the right track, and he set me straight about those resistors.
Personally, I removed the master/slave traces, as they're not really necessary at all - you can link the two board's outputs at the main output terminals and reduce signal wire length. Also, I feel with a twin output (parallel) DAC, you really want identical signal lengths, for a correct time constant, though perhaps that's a bit paranoid, seeing as the signals are travelling at the speed of light...
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Hi Alon and Lucas,
very interesting modification!
For those who don´t want to cut the DAC module, i have made a nice overview for the modification:
very interesting modification!
For those who don´t want to cut the DAC module, i have made a nice overview for the modification:
I have not yet started populating the boards and was going with the non-TL431 version - it seems to me that it is possible to position/stack the shunt boards over the top of the dac board(s) and get very short leads to the points indicated by Oliver.
Would I be right in thinking that no tracks would need to be cut in that case?
Would I be right in thinking that no tracks would need to be cut in that case?
I chose to solder the salas shunts to the 220uf decoupling caps for 3 reasons..
1. Soldering the positive and ground(salas shunt) to the tl431 pins is difficult as the 3 pins are very close to each other and it's easy to create a short.
2. The tl431 pins are tiny, so it's difficult to use thick cable, which salas recommends. Also the solder points can easily lift of the board here.
3. I wanted to keep the positive and ground wires of same length...soldering to the 220uf decoupling cap enabled this.
I do not need to cut any tracks..it's just me being finicky!! Means I can sleep better at night
Forgot to mention before that now with the salas shunts I can dial in the voltages exactly -15v, -5v, +5v, +5v and they are very stable..previously with tl431's it was impossible to do, voltages were all over the place.
Also forgot to say that now notes from certain instruments(piano..etc) now hang in the air beautifully till they decay away..very nice indeed.
Alon
1. Soldering the positive and ground(salas shunt) to the tl431 pins is difficult as the 3 pins are very close to each other and it's easy to create a short.
2. The tl431 pins are tiny, so it's difficult to use thick cable, which salas recommends. Also the solder points can easily lift of the board here.
3. I wanted to keep the positive and ground wires of same length...soldering to the 220uf decoupling cap enabled this.
I do not need to cut any tracks..it's just me being finicky!! Means I can sleep better at night
Forgot to mention before that now with the salas shunts I can dial in the voltages exactly -15v, -5v, +5v, +5v and they are very stable..previously with tl431's it was impossible to do, voltages were all over the place.
Also forgot to say that now notes from certain instruments(piano..etc) now hang in the air beautifully till they decay away..very nice indeed.
Alon
I recommend 0.6mm solid core silver wire for the power connections from the shunts. I also agree that connecting to the old TL431 holes is impractical and suggest scraping a nice centimetre line of trace and soldering a silver wire to it, for strength and electrical solidity.
Otherwise, I'm guessing Oliver has considered this mod, and if he decides to do this for himself, he will perhaps consider designing a new smaller board, or am I wrong Oliver?
Otherwise, I'm guessing Oliver has considered this mod, and if he decides to do this for himself, he will perhaps consider designing a new smaller board, or am I wrong Oliver?
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