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Waveguides and horns

Full size bass horn in a room 1/3 oct. smoothing- lack of room modes.
 

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What is the use of "Horn gain"? I mean who cares? Can't you get high powered amps or high efficiency woofers in Europe? Directivity control is all that matters and you never show that.

Less cone movement, less power needed for a given sound pressure, less distortion, the ability to use low powered amps which very often sound better then its high powered brethren... Enough for me to care...
 
So, in a small room (less than 16-20m dimensionally), what benefit can be had by using horn subwoofers? If the wavelengths are longer than room dimensions, AFAIK, it's not going to be acting like a horn (with reduced cone movement and reduced distortion), it's going to act just like a direct radiator. If I lived in an auditorium, I'd be all over using multiple horn subs.
 
So, in a small room (less than 16-20m dimensionally), what benefit can be had by using horn subwoofers? If the wavelengths are longer than room dimensions, AFAIK, it's not going to be acting like a horn (with reduced cone movement and reduced distortion), it's going to act just like a direct radiator. If I lived in an auditorium, I'd be all over using multiple horn subs.

ER...

A horn subwoofer will still have the behaviour necessary for "horn loading" at down to its corner. (Motor-based) Distortion and cone movement are still reduced.
 
As does a bigger driver, and in terms of total size, its still smaller than a bass horn. Sorry to be so blunt, but bass horns in small rooms simply make no sense. That is the reality.


Define a small room? having clean dynamics is imporant. Having less harmonic distortion is important. Having CLEAN 120 dB with 100Watts is important to some people too. Doing it all for around $100 is well....priceless!!!!

Have you seen the low cost flat pack horns on AVSForums?? Have you seen the new F-20 horn design with 20Hz and HUGE output with a $70 driver (MFW-15). It makes a lot of sense if you look at the numbers plus the $$$.

The numbers simply say it makes a lot of sense!! here is a thread that makes a lot of sense http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1329971, there is are many other builds that make sense. The DTS-10 is a monster choice for low power high output down to 12Hz.

FWIW, I choose the best subwoofer drivers instead and go sealed because I want 10Hz output (> 110dB) but my solutions is 10x more expensive. The value/performance of bass horns is not lost on me.
 
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ra7

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As does a bigger driver, and in terms of total size, its still smaller than a bass horn. Sorry to be so blunt, but bass horns in small rooms simply make no sense. That is the reality.

Can you please elaborate why bass horns will not work in a small room? I'm about to build some, so I would like to know in advance if they are not going to work. Although, I don't see how they won't work.
 
My understanding is that below the corner frequency of the room, horns cease to function as horns. There is apparently some debate about it, and I'll admit that I could be misunderstanding as I haven't studied anything related to horn subwoofers in a couple of years.

However, if my understanding is correct, there is little use building very large horn subwoofers when multiple direct radiators can perform similarly. I have yet to hear a horn based subwoofer solution that made me think I was missing out using a distributed bass setup.
 
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My understanding is that below the corner frequency of the room, horns cease to function as horns. There is apparently some debate about it, and I'll admit that I could be misunderstanding as I haven't studied anything related to horn subwoofers in a couple of years.

However, if my understanding is correct, there is little use building very large horn subwoofers when multiple direct radiators can perform similarly. I have yet to hear a horn based subwoofer solution that made me think I was missing out using a distributed bass setup.

Its a semantic thing here and Its common for geddes to post a "strict definition" of how a horn performs. Real application discussion have to be separated from that opinion.

Its well documented already that there are many real advantages to bass horn designs. You guys do realize that companies like Danley isn't building vaporware here.

To say "Horns do not function as horns in our rooms" tells me someone has a very specific "Do not function as horn" definition.

I do know that BIG bass horns have major advantages in rooms.

1. Fractional of power needed. I need thousands of watts in my LMS-5400 sealed designs to get the same output @ 15Hz that the DTS-10 has with 100 watts.

2. Lowest distortion. Look at distortion measurements of the horn vs any other bass design within the operating range of the horn.

All of these numbers have been measured and posted by Ricci over on AVS.


there is little use building very large horn subwoofers when multiple direct radiators can perform similarly.

BS!! How about the fraction of $$$ in drivers, fraction of $$$ in amps, LOWEST distortion, No need for 30 amp circuits neither? if you consider that "little use" then I do not know how to help you figure out why there is a benefit. The downside is the size....Again go research Danley's DTS-10 performance!! Opinion without data is the only useless part of this discussion.
 
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Can you please elaborate why bass horns will not work in a small room? I'm about to build some, so I would like to know in advance if they are not going to work. Although, I don't see how they won't work.

I would recommend ignoring the opinion and just look at all the succesful builds/measurements as proof horns have advantages. I posted links before to the a 15" woofer horn design tuned to 20Hz...The numbers are off the charts!! Now if you want <= 10Hz and more then two octave performance then a massive bass horn isnt the best choice.
 
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Its a semantic thing here and Its common for geddes to post a "strict definition" of how a horn performs. Real application discussion have to be separated from that opinion.

Its well documented already that there are many real advantages to bass horn designs. You guys do realize that companies like Danley isn't building vaporware here.

To say "Horns do not function as horns in our rooms" tells me someone has a very specific "Do not function as horn" definition.

I do know that BIG bass horns have major advantages in rooms.

1. Fractional of power needed. I need thousands of watts in my LMS-5400 sealed designs to get the same output @ 15Hz that the DTS-10 has with 100 watts.

2. Lowest distortion. Look at distortion measurements of the horn vs any other bass design within the operating range of the horn.

All of these numbers have been measured and posted by Ricci over on AVS.




BS!! How about the fraction of $$$ in drivers, fraction of $$$ in amps, LOWEST distortion, No need for 30 amp circuits neither? if you consider that "little use" then I do not know how to help you figure out why there is a benefit. The downside is the size....Again go research Danley's DTS-10 performance!! Opinion without data is the only useless part of this discussion.

Lose the attitude. I was just trying to provide an answer to question based on my understanding which has nothing to do with anything Geddes has ever posted on the subject.
 
I haven't had an opportunity to do any further research.

Thats cool....here are some good build threads that shows off the performance possibilities of horns.

Wolfhorn SDX Design Finished - AVS Forum

Do you know any other design that can do reference @ 15Hz clean for $500 and 300Watts?

This one shows how to use a 6.5" driver and produce quality bass for music.
Group Buy for 6.5" Anarchy Tapped Horn. - AVS Forum


This one is my current favorite. It uses a $70 driver (MFW-15 driver from the now defunct AV123.com audio company). Lets see $280 in drivers/$250 in amps and a person can have > 120dB @ 21Hz with < 5% distortion.

Lilmike's Cinema F-20 - AVS Forum


There is no myths about what horns can do from those who actually build them (NOTE: Im a big fan of monster sealed and IB designs but horns have some very interesting advantages).
 
Doug,

I have built a few horn subs, Decware's Wicked One, and a pair of Lab12s. Those may very well be bad examples of horn subs and I suspect they are *very* far from SOTA. However, at the time, LAB12s were thought of as being quite good. If I had the space to do distributed bass with them, I might have a different opinion of them. A pair didn't cut it, though.