Disappointing interaction with GedLee - Page 2 - diyAudio
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Old 25th January 2011, 04:54 AM   #11
cwujek is offline cwujek  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed LaFontaine View Post
If I understand correctly, your receipt of the crossover schematic preceded arrival of the crossover parts. The parts don't fit the schematic provided.

Do I understand correctly?

It is reasonable to expect the parts to fit the schematic. If they do not an exchange would be in order.
Correct, he sent me the updated schematic after I originally paid, and when I received the parts three months later, it was not the parts on the schematic, but parts for an older version. Even then, the parts aren't the proper value of the old version, some values are significantly different. Just to illustrate, I'll give the values that are required on the schematic followed by the values I have:

Capacitors:

2 x 15uf, I have 18uf caps - 20% difference
2 x 10uf, I have 12uf caps - 20% difference
2 x 6uf, I have 8uf caps - 33% difference
2 x 30uf, I have 30uf caps
2 x 2uf, I have 2uf caps

Resistors:

2 x 3 ohm, I have 2.2 ohm - 36% difference
2 x 2 ohm, I have 2.2 ohm - 10% difference
2 x 5 ohm, I have 4.7 ohm - 6% difference
2 x 4 ohm, I have 3.9 ohm - 2.5% difference
2 x 5 ohm, I have 5 ohm
2 x 10 ohm, I have 10 ohm

Some differences (less than 10%) I can understand. But this is just sloppy. I have values that are up to 36% different than what is on the older schematic. So not only did I not receive the product promised, I received something that isn't really all that close to spec.
 
Old 25th January 2011, 01:04 PM   #12
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I think the good doctor needs to offer his view on this.

In light of his adherence to values that required more than we are capable of,

as if to say: so you need not bother with diy, just buy the kit from me...

How can the actions be reconciled with the expressed standards of quality?

How can mis-matched components provide all that a kit is supposed to?

Is this on track?
 
Old 28th January 2011, 11:45 PM   #13
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Yes, I should offer my view.

The crossover schematics change in detail quite often, this is because the parts availability changes, lower cost parts, etc. Of key importance here is the fact that these changes rarely produce any significant effect on the crossover they are for convenience only. Mr Wujek was mistakenly sent a different crossover schematic than what would have been correct at the time he bought the parts (he assumes "newer", but that cannot be confirmed either way as I do not know what he was originally sent). He was then sent the correct schematic for his parts set. He was not satisfied. He wanted me to buy him a completly new set of parts using the latest schematic - more than a year after his original purchase. So basically he got everything that I agreed to, but he wanted more. The total sale to him was something like $350 of which I might have made maybe something like $50. His expectations of a completely new set of parts is unreasonable.

I would alos like to point out that since Mr. Wujek did not buy his original parts from me, I was under no obligation whatever to go any further with him in helping him to complete his speakers. I did so as a courtesy to him. This kind of thing is precisely why I do not do sell seperate parts anymore. You help someone out and they turn arround and want even more.

Last edited by gedlee; 28th January 2011 at 11:55 PM.
 
Old 29th January 2011, 03:00 AM   #14
cwujek is offline cwujek  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
Yes, I should offer my view.

The crossover schematics change in detail quite often, this is because the parts availability changes, lower cost parts, etc. Of key importance here is the fact that these changes rarely produce any significant effect on the crossover they are for convenience only. Mr Wujek was mistakenly sent a different crossover schematic than what would have been correct at the time he bought the parts (he assumes "newer", but that cannot be confirmed either way as I do not know what he was originally sent). He was then sent the correct schematic for his parts set. He was not satisfied. He wanted me to buy him a completly new set of parts using the latest schematic - more than a year after his original purchase. So basically he got everything that I agreed to, but he wanted more. The total sale to him was something like $350 of which I might have made maybe something like $50. His expectations of a completely new set of parts is unreasonable.

I would alos like to point out that since Mr. Wujek did not buy his original parts from me, I was under no obligation whatever to go any further with him in helping him to complete his speakers. I did so as a courtesy to him. This kind of thing is precisely why I do not do sell seperate parts anymore. You help someone out and they turn arround and want even more.
First, let's get some basic facts straight. I paid you $800, not $350. If this cost you $300, than by my calculation you made $500 on this interaction, which I really don't mind, I realize you have to make money. As for the year later comment, I don't think you can simply pin that on me. It took 3 months just to receive the crossover parts, and after that you were very difficult to reach. I emailed you twice after receiving them regarding the value discrepancy, you told me you were in China for the next month, and to email you again in another month. I emailed again and did not get a response other than that you would get back to me eventually. I moved, finished the cabinets a few months later, and yes, after all that it had been almost a year.

I did not want all new parts. I wanted parts to match the crossover schematic which I was sent and told was the latest version, which would have changed only some of the values. I also told you I would be happy to send the parts back, I just don't see how you can repeatedly call me unreasonable. After emailing you, you told me that you must have sent parts for an older version, and that you would get back to me with a schematic that would function. I never received this till our recent interactions, and even then I was left with parts that aren't that close.

For the last time, the only non original part that I did not buy from you was the baffles, which are still your product that you sold to another forum member (and made a profit on). I paid just as much/more than those who bought complete kits from you when you add what I paid for the baffles. Of course you had no obligation to help me, but I am quite proficient at sourcing parts myself and would have done so in retrospect. Even if I had only bought the crossovers, I would expect you to at least be accountable for what you sell. "You help someone out and they turn arround and want even more." Are you serious? You clearly made a profit, and all I'm asking for is a replacement for incorrect parts that I received.
 
Old 29th January 2011, 02:00 PM   #15
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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I guess you also bought the woofers from me as well which would have pushed the price up by another $400, so I made a little more.

As to my availabilty that is simply the fact that I almost spend more time out of the country than I do in it. I am Diamond Elite on Delta - 150k miles in one year. So I am not going to make excuses for my not being easy to reach. At any rate, it took you over a year to complete the enclosures and not because of anything that I did. This delay was your doing.

The bottom line here is that you have received everything that I said that I would sell to you - period.

And you did want to send me the old parts back and get an entirely new set, based on my latest crossover design, which I was not about to do because I have no use for the old parts and a new set would have cost me a couple of hundred dollars. You have the parts and a schematic that will result in a system that is audibly identical to any other Nathan.

Your complaints are unfounded.
 
Old 29th January 2011, 02:43 PM   #16
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Diamond Elite on Delta, sorry but that made me laugh. What kind of argument is that ?
 
Old 29th January 2011, 03:53 PM   #17
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Means a lot of seat-time, presumably hopping DTW to China...as a buddy of mine used to say when we did a lot of such travel as automobile engineers "that's a flight you have to sober up on 3 times." Hmmm, with on-board wifi and 13 hour flight-time that would allow ample time to, for instance, keep up with e-mail!!
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Old 29th January 2011, 04:10 PM   #18
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinahcc20 View Post
Hmmm, with on-board wifi and 13 hour flight-time that would allow ample time to, for instance, keep up with e-mail!!
On-board Wi-Fi does not work on international flights. And E-mail from China is not always easy as they have some serious fire-wall issues. I do not go to a major city, but a fairly small village. The factory has no heat, and very unreliable internet. AT any rate, this issue in not really about my availability.

I want the readers to know what this is really about.

Chris took over a year to finish his speakers and he had the parts for the crossover for most of this time. He notified me of some value discrepancies with the schematic. I promised to send him the crossover schematic for his parts set when he got ready to build it. In the mean time I changed the Nathan design to the Nathan-10a and changed the crossover. Chris heard from someone that had changed their crossover (they bought all new parts as I don't upgrade older crossovers - no one is going to do that) that the change was "significantly better". I am not sure thats true, but anyways, Chris asked me if I would take back the parts that he had and send him a set of new parts for the new crossover. I said that I would not do that because I could not use the parts that he would send me and I would have to pay for the new parts and I don't do that for anyone not even people who buy their kits directly from me, which he did not. I told Chris that I would send him the new schematic, but he would have to buy the new parts set (I will still do that, in fact, just as I do for all of my customers, even though,in his case, he did not buy the cabinets from me), or I would send him the older schematic as we had originally agreed to. Chris did not like this answer and threatened to take his complaint to the internet (to-wit) hoping to intimidate me into doing what he wanted. I still declined and sent him the correct schematic for his parts set.

And thus the agreement was completed as stated. That Chris is not satisfied is unfortunate, but doing what he wants would short change all of my other customers who have older crossover designs - the ones who are more reasonable.

Last edited by gedlee; 29th January 2011 at 04:18 PM.
 
Old 29th January 2011, 05:19 PM   #19
badman is offline badman  United States
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Would both of you be amenable to posting your email communications, verbatim? It would certainly help clarify.
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Old 29th January 2011, 05:45 PM   #20
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Although that is allowed here with consent, I don't think it a good idea -yet.
Let the mod team look this over first, please.

This is an audio forum, not a business resolution forum.
 

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