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Old 2nd May 2008, 02:58 AM   #21
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by critofur
Pictures please. (or link to where we can see them)
They will be almost indistinguishable from the ESP10 found at www.ai-audio.com. The differences are in the construction techniques, but the drivers and the performance will be virtually identical. The ESP10 could never be made as a kit because of the complexity of the composite cabinet. The technique is very costly.
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Old 2nd May 2008, 03:16 AM   #22
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A flat pack for the cabinets is what I had in mind - I would never assemble them - that makes no sense. If you consider that $600 was my target price you can see what the options would be.
$600 for each speaker, or for the pair?
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Old 2nd May 2008, 03:16 AM   #23
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Default Re: Re: Re: Sub ?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bratislav



I do understand that, and that is not what I had in mind. As you are the person who knows best what the natural roll off of the 10" in a suggested box is, you are in perfect position to suggest ideal crossover frequency and slope in order to integrate with a sub (with minimal phase shift).
Given the suggestions to use multiple subs in various locations around the room, all tuned differently (perhaps even different size drivers?), will phase shift be an issue? (Assuming it is even audible in the first place with most speakers and music.)

Mixing and matching from things like the Parts Express Sub-80, Sub-100, and Sub-120 might work out inexpensively. There is even an article on turning the 120 into a sealed-box with a servo.

Linkwitz's sub for use with the Orion++ looks competent.

There are also the ESP bandpass subs. Personally, I have always found this type of sub to produce one-note bass, but I have not heard these models at all.
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Old 2nd May 2008, 03:16 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by djarchow
Earl,

I looked at the AI speakers and are you talking about doing a baffle like the ESP10 with the roundover on the waveguide/tweeter opening?

As a DIY'r who doesn't like painted baffles at all I would rather have the waveguide etc mount just like a driver on my own veneered baffle. This way, all I would have to do is route the proper sized through hole and rebate for the waveguide and then mount it just like a a driver.

I am sure this would result in extra tooling for you but think this would give the most flexibility to the builder.

Kind regards,

Dennis

It sounded to me like the waveguide and underlying support (the baffle) were rather closely mated.

You could probably trim off the excess radiused part around the waveguide, plus cut off the woofer part of the baffle, and then get something close to what you want.

Perhaps this would be a good time to explore the beauty of opaque decorative finshes? The Danish have always seemed to blend black and walnut in tasteful ways, just as an example.
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Old 2nd May 2008, 04:52 AM   #25
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Sub ?

Quote:
Originally posted by stuartk2007


Given the suggestions to use multiple subs in various locations around the room, all tuned differently (perhaps even different size drivers?), will phase shift be an issue? (Assuming it is even audible in the first place with most speakers and music.)

Mixing and matching from things like the Parts Express Sub-80, Sub-100, and Sub-120 might work out inexpensively. There is even an article on turning the 120 into a sealed-box with a servo.

Linkwitz's sub for use with the Orion++ looks competent.

There are also the ESP bandpass subs. Personally, I have always found this type of sub to produce one-note bass, but I have not heard these models at all.
Obviously I was not clear. I have no problem with high pass part; I was just hinting at a possibility of not having to measure the box in order to estimate its Q and f3. If Q was 0.707 for example (I doubt it as box is on a smallish side) just another 2nd order L-R at F3 would make a targeted LR4 with minimal phase shift. If Q was not 0.7, one would need to make pole shifting circuit to get the targeted response before designing a mating high pass.
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Old 2nd May 2008, 06:27 AM   #26
FrankWW is offline FrankWW  Canada
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Hi Earl,

I live in an apartment. When I want to do serious DIY I have to borrow or rent workspace or pay someone to do the cutting for me. Can't run a saw or router in here. I can assemble and finish, though.

So my preference is to buy a full kit.

I'm sure my situation is not unique.
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Old 2nd May 2008, 07:57 AM   #27
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I think

1 = Baffle (+ integrated waveguide) and plans.

2= 1 + Drivers + XO

3= Everything except the 5 other sides of the cabinets
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Old 2nd May 2008, 12:29 PM   #28
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sub ?

Quote:
Originally posted by stuartk2007


$600 for each speaker, or for the pair?
Thats each. The drivers alone are almost $600 for the pair.

Quote:
Originally posted by stuartk2007


Given the suggestions to use multiple subs in various locations around the room, all tuned differently (perhaps even different size drivers?), will phase shift be an issue? (Assuming it is even audible in the first place with most speakers and music.)
I am not sure what phase shift you mean, the response at any point is the sum of the individual sources, and the phase is based on that same sum. There is no reason to believe that it would be any better or worse than a single sub. And I suppose its a tradeoff - large frequency response irregularities are certainly audible, so that has to be the first priority.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bratislav


Obviously I was not clear. I have no problem with high pass part; I was just hinting at a possibility of not having to measure the box in order to estimate its Q and f3. If Q was 0.707 for example (I doubt it as box is on a smallish side) just another 2nd order L-R at F3 would make a targeted LR4 with minimal phase shift. If Q was not 0.7, one would need to make pole shifting circuit to get the targeted response before designing a mating high pass.
I see what you mean now. I would never use another HP filter like that. I want the energy below F3, which is why they are monopoles and I usually have a lot of overlap of the subs. As I have said before, you have to set the parameters in-situ. The multiple subs idea doesn't work unless all the sources are playing in the same frequency range. So in essence there is no "crossover" in the sense that you mean. The subs are blended into the mains, not crossed over to the mains.

In general the subs will LP at different point which is what acomodates the blending.
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Old 2nd May 2008, 12:34 PM   #29
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by tktran303
I think

1 = Baffle (+ integrated waveguide) and plans.

2= 1 + Drivers + XO

3= Everything except the 5 other sides of the cabinets
You and FrankWW don't agree here. You don't think that anyone would want the wood cut? I agree with Frank that I think a lot of people lack the tools to cut the cabinets but have the ability to finish them. I think that they could be acceptably finished with spray cans. And assembly just needs a hammer and some nails, perhaps a drill. But cutting the wood for the cabinet takes a table saw and thats not something that everyone has.

I see your 1 and 2 but 3 is everything.
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Old 2nd May 2008, 04:25 PM   #30
kstrain is offline kstrain  Scotland
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Perhaps consider a menu?
a) Baffle, b) crossover, c) drivers, d) box panels; buyer chooses from list.

For example, I'd most likely go for either just a) or a) + d) as I have the DE250s, and bucket loads of crossover components.

I'd have thought the physical nature of the parts would allow such a "pick what you need" approach (drivers come separately, crossovers are a small box, baffle and panels are bulky).

I hope you are not in the end disappointed by the number of orders that emerge from this (or more positively: good luck!)

Ken
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