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Old 27th May 2008, 12:02 AM   #221
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by publius


Perhaps what you are really doing is:

1. running your main speakers full range (and letting their natural rolloff below 50hz protect them from overdrive)
2. using your receiver to SUM content from your main speaker channels below 150hz to the LFE channel, creating what is called a subwoofer channel (which is distinct from an LFE channel).
3. using this subwoofer channel as the input for each of your subwoofers, which you then adjust for frequency and level.

If this is the case, then it would all seem to make some sense.

Yes. Parametric EQ can also help as well. Do you have parametric EQ in your subwoofers? If not, how do you deal with room modes?
Your discussion is all semantics to me. The output on the receiver is labeled "LFE", but yes in "stereo" it is a mono sub channel, but in DVD it is the LFE "PLUS" which means that LF energy from all channels is also sent to the LFE channel - an ideal situation for what I do. Different receivers do this differently but in mine I can set the LP frequency above 120 Hz in "PLUS" mode.

When you use multiple subs in a room with substantial LF damping there really aren't problem modes that need EQ. Only in a few cases have I found the need for EQ at these frequencies.
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Old 27th May 2008, 12:04 AM   #222
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Bateman


Could someone explain to me the advantage of using a boutique subwoofer instead of a Costco subwoofer?

You might argue that the Costco sub will have lousy power handling. If that's the case, buy four of them. That increases your SPL limit by 12db.

You might argue the Costco sub isn't as handsome as an audiophile sub. That may be true, so hide it! No one wants to look at three subs anyways.

You might argue that the Costco sub has lousy frequency response. While some cheap subs are designed with a hump in the midbass, there are plenty of inexpensive powered subs that measure well and have predictable crossovers and EQ built in.

Last but not least is price. Spending $750 on three Costco subs and pairing them with a $1200 kit seams reasonable. Spending $3000 on three boutique subs seems unnecessary with $1200 mains.

I've always been mystified by the use of exotic subwoofers in the home. In car audio, they make a lot of sense, because box size is king in mobile audio. Also, car subs function in "pressure mode" due to the small dimensions of the cabin. Exotic subs also make sense in pro audio, where dozens of subs are in play and each is being fed thousands of watts.

In the home, not so much.

The Costco comment was perhaps somewhat facicious, but John, you get the point and I agree with you. The fact is that I don't use Costco subs, I use bigger units with higher power, BUT I don't use boutique subs just like you say.
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Old 27th May 2008, 12:06 AM   #223
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally posted by MJL21193

HT is the ONLY place a subwoofer matters. You don't need one for music, providing you have real main speakers.

Good quality subs beat one note boom boxes and over eq'ed, over driven poop producers any day.
I don't agree with this and obviuosly neither do the reviewers of my rooms.
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Old 27th May 2008, 12:15 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee


I don't agree with this and obviuosly neither do the reviewers of my rooms.

Which part? The need for a sub for music or the adequacy of the cheap HT in a box subs?

I have always had reasonably good speakers. I've had good subs and I've heard cheap ones. Music, IMO is best through 2 good speakers, ones that cover the frequency range. As it was intended to be. I turn off my sub for music. Likewise, I don't listen to music is surround.
As for HT, I'd rather no sub than a deficient one.
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Old 27th May 2008, 12:22 AM   #225
publius is offline publius  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee


Your discussion is all semantics to me. The output on the receiver is labeled "LFE", but yes in "stereo" it is a mono sub channel, but in DVD it is the LFE "PLUS" which means that LF energy from all channels is also sent to the LFE channel - an ideal situation for what I do. Different receivers do this differently but in mine I can set the LP frequency above 120 Hz in "PLUS" mode.

When you use multiple subs in a room with substantial LF damping there really aren't problem modes that need EQ. Only in a few cases have I found the need for EQ at these frequencies.
Thank you Dr. G. Have you posted the frequency response of your room? I would be curious to see what response you have found to sound best. If not, could you describe it? E.g., do you shoot for dead flat response, rising response in the bass with a 5db peak around 50hz and rolled off below that, etc.
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Old 27th May 2008, 01:09 AM   #226
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by publius


Thank you Dr. G. Have you posted the frequency response of your room? I would be curious to see what response you have found to sound best. If not, could you describe it? E.g., do you shoot for dead flat response, rising response in the bass with a 5db peak around 50hz and rolled off below that, etc.
I go between perfectly flat and about a 2 dB rise at maybe 50 Hz. Some rooms sound different than others, but in general I would say flat is best unless you have a notable lack of bass. If I can dig up my room response I will post it.

I believe, as many others have noted, that true CD sounds bright if EQ'd perfectly flat to 16 kHz. I drop this by a few dB at the top with the curtains that I use in front of the speakers and this seems to yield the best results. If you don't use curtains and you don't use a treble control and you use a flat EQ in the crossover, I guarantee you that you will find this bright as we are just not used to hearing wide coverage at 10 kHz.
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Old 27th May 2008, 01:12 AM   #227
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by MJL21193



Which part? The need for a sub for music or the adequacy of the cheap HT in a box subs?

I have always had reasonably good speakers. I've had good subs and I've heard cheap ones. Music, IMO is best through 2 good speakers, ones that cover the frequency range. As it was intended to be. I turn off my sub for music. Likewise, I don't listen to music is surround.
As for HT, I'd rather no sub than a deficient one.

No one is suggesting using totally incompetent subs. Even the Costco ones are Infinity and Klipsch, not junk.

But only two source locations for the low end will not yield a very good response and then these mains need to be huge to go low enough. The two speaker approach is just not optimum, even for stereo.
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Old 27th May 2008, 01:39 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee


But only two source locations for the low end will not yield a very good response and then these mains need to be huge to go low enough. The two speaker approach is just not optimum, even for stereo.

Funny, but it works for me. Mains don't need to be huge. I have three way speakers with fairly good low end response, fairly good efficiency and capable of fairly high SPL. They sound great for music, and I do like it loud.
By themselves they don't cut it for HT though.

For HT, there is not enough bass production. Also, we need a centre channel and rear surrounds. But, this is HT, not music.

It just seems like your system is optimized for HT, not for music.
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Old 27th May 2008, 02:53 AM   #229
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by MJL21193

It just seems like your system is optimized for HT, not for music.
Thats not what the reviews say. Read them!

REDWINGS RULE!!!!
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Old 27th May 2008, 03:54 AM   #230
limono is offline limono  United States
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Can't we just focus for now on DIY speaker kit which will be 10" with 80-100Hz bottom and options and leave the Summa or 12" 15" out of it? When the first batch will be delivered and when the first (beta??) testers are going to write or report on the sound?
Is there a prototype to listen too? I do like an idea of a curtain at a front of a speaker (it solves speaker finish problem too
Regards, L
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