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Old 20th July 2009, 07:38 PM   #1161
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You call me "nit-picking" others call me "Geddes supporter" looks like one doesn't make many friends when asking for objectivity in the audio world

This looks like an audible peak to me. What do others say?

Click the image to open in full size.

Best, Markus
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Old 20th July 2009, 08:00 PM   #1162
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Quote:
Originally posted by markus76

looks like one doesn't make many friends when asking for objectivity in the audio world

What do others say?

Click the image to open in full size.


Objectivity?
Seems some can and some cant
Objectivity can be very insensitive and rough, even if intentions are only good and fair


Peak?
Looks more like a small dip in the rolloff

Remove what you consider a peak, and the rollof would look peaked instead
Besides, a few db I wouldnt consider peaked

Anyway, personally I would never accept to have a speaker toed in
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Old 20th July 2009, 08:13 PM   #1163
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Markus

Thats so true. I try and be honest, present real data, and people turn it arround and use it against you by unfairly comparing it to incomparable data.

I understand what you are trying to say. And yes, if there was a fix to the 500 Hz problem that didn't cost anything I'd do it. To me the problem is the resonance at 150-200 Hz that makes this look like a broad peak, when what it actually is, is a rising response due to edge resonances. The response rises at a different rate than the LP filter can match and so you either get this slow rise or a bigger hole at the crossover. The DE10 is simply impossible to push lower to cover this hole, so you are trapped trying to pick the best of several bad choices. If this system sells well, then I may switch 8" drivers to a Neo one, but its a lot more expensive and I either need large volume of sales or I would have to raise the price. I have had to consistantly raise my prices, so I don't want to keep doing that.

B&C is basically phasing out thier older ceramic designs, like the 10ps26 in your Nathans. Its not available anymore to new customers, although they will still sell it to current customers. I am going to have to swtich the driver in the Nathan in the not too distant future and I will try and find the best choice at that time. But it will have to be something that B&C has in the catalog since its getting harder and harder to get the drivers that I am currently using.
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Old 20th July 2009, 08:14 PM   #1164
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Quote:
Originally posted by tinitus
Anyway, personally I would never accept to have a speaker toed in
Why? It can be very helpful to redirect most of the radiated power to the left or right side of the room.
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Old 20th July 2009, 09:22 PM   #1165
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Originally posted by markus76


Why? It can be very helpful to redirect most of the radiated power to the left or right side of the room.

I dont know, but looks too strange to my eyes, but thats just me I guess

Anyway, listening on axis you still have less reflections than the normal way of listening, off axis "toed out"

Listening on axis, or close to, as I prefer it, you get two equal off axis response, inside and outside
You may say that the on axis response becomes one side of your off axis

Listening toed in on a speaker due to elevated/rising on axis response, you get two different off axis responses
I dont know if it means anything at all, but thats how it is objectively
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Old 20th July 2009, 09:43 PM   #1166
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The room's dimensions and the speakers directivity (and the toe-in) dictates the reflection pattern. Listening on-axis doesn't necessarily create "two equal off axis response[s]". Most (piston) speakers are flat on their 0 axis. You can't toe them in anyway. Earl's speakers are different. Being able to delay reflections and control their direction by toeing-in the speakers can be most helpful.

Best, Markus
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Old 20th July 2009, 11:23 PM   #1167
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Tinitus

Markus is correct, you can't toe in speakers that are not CD, it doesn't work, so if you tried this with piston loudspeakers, then of course you won't like it. But with CD sources this has major advantages for room interaction and wider "sweet spots".

Is how the speakers "look" when toed-in important? It only looks odd because it is so uncommon. And its only uncommon because true CD speakers are rare.
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Old 20th July 2009, 11:55 PM   #1168
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In addition nearly any "normal" speaker has to be toed-in 30 for the direct sound to be flat.
My Nathans are toed-in only 7.5-15 (so I end up listening on the speakers 15-22.5 axis) - this is much less toe-in compared to a "normal" piston speaker.
Toe-in the Nathans 45-52.5 (which again equals the speakers 15-22.5 axis) and you have redirected reflections to the other side of the room. Comes in very handy.

Best, Markus
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Old 21st July 2009, 12:32 AM   #1169
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by markus76
In addition nearly any "normal" speaker has to be toed-in 30 for the direct sound to be flat.

Best, Markus
OK, now I'm confused - why is that? Or do you mean that the crossing point has to be at the sweet spot? But in that case the angles would be variable based on listening and speaker distances.

To define terms, "toe-in", to me, means that the speaker axes cross ahead of the listener and "toe-out" means that they cross behind the listener. "On-axis" means just that, even though the speakers are pointing inwards. With this definition, no matter what the setup distances we always know what we are talking about.
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Old 21st July 2009, 12:49 AM   #1170
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No toe-in - looks good:

Click the image to open in full size.

Traditional 30 piston speaker toe-in:

Click the image to open in full size.

Summa toe-in:

Click the image to open in full size.

Best, Markus
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