Tweaking Onur's Singular with FE207E - diyAudio
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Old 11th April 2007, 01:39 PM   #1
OzMikeH is offline OzMikeH  Australia
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Default Tweaking Onur's Singular with FE207E

I have built a pair of Singular cabinets with 18mm MDF, I heard a friend's singulars with AER Mk1 drivers and was instantly hooked.
I just HAD to have some but could not afford the superb (and incredibly efficient) AER drivers.
I wish to tinker and tweak to see how good I can get these relatively cheap drivers to perform.

I still haven't painted/finished the cabinets yet.
The back chambers are stuffed with a shredded polyester pillow from our guest room (the shops were closed, ok?)
Layers from the other guest room pillow were carefully peeled off and trimmed to make a 3cm thick layer to fit in the bottom of the U bend.

So here is a thread to share my experiences and for people to contribute ideas. Hopefully people can learn from my experiences.

So far I have added some blu-tac secured with wool to try to damp the frame/magnet connection. (see picture)
There are various comments here and there I've made on related strings, I'll attempt to distill them here.

So far I installed the drivers to the cabinets about 4 days ago and gave them an 8 hour run at "watching TV" volume, a couple of CDs at "I'm listening to music" volume and a fair thrashing for half a Metallica CD at "let's see what they can take" volume this afternoon, (until my better half had a headache from it).

They are certainly sounding a lot better than when I first listened to them. (or I'm getting used to them) I have dropped the applied signal volume by about 12-14 dB since I started to maintain a normal listneing volume. my old Speakers are Tannoy M15 at 85 dB/w/m. These are a 2 way 8 inch bass reflex speaker. The worst sounding of the new and old speakers will be used for the rear surround channels.

Pit Hinder had some comments I cut and paste here and add my comments in <like this>:

Tweaking the drivers...YES! But taking a knife to them to add a phase plug amounts to open heart surgery. Try reversible measures first, you'll be astonished by what affordable drivers can do. <OzMikeH: if it helps a little bit I am not afraid to do it>

#1 The .98c trick. (Thanks GM for reminding us). Wrap a thread of wool around the whizzer, down where it meets the main cone. <I will try this, what size? thick and fluffy? what about a pipecleaner or too heavy?>

#2 Felt, or as innerconflict, the Nonphony from Caliphony, has proven to be good, simple household sponge. Use double sided adhesive tape to fix it to the inside of the basket legs. <I do not trust the double sided adhesive, I will try this tied on with string with some silicone sealant underneath>

#3 Caulking on the outside of the basket legs and (very effective) on the front of the magnet and in the gap between magnet and basket. <I have applied blu-tac so far, I was nervous about irreversible changes at first and blu tac can be removed, then I disassemble to finish/paint I will use caulk>
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File Type: jpg 3-basket damping material.jpg (31.1 KB, 1639 views)
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Old 14th April 2007, 06:09 AM   #2
OzMikeH is offline OzMikeH  Australia
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I've given them a good listen and decided I need a super tweeter. The high end isnt there in the flesh and not on the datasheet for the driver either.

I'm thinking of a shaped high pass filter on the tweeter starting at about 12-13kHz where the Fe207E starts rolling off.

I want fair off axis (30 degrees) response and nice flat freq response from 10k right through to 20k.

I've only looked at fostex driver so far.
They need to be same or beter efficiency than the main speakers, (95dB/w/m) which rules out the fostex ribbon tweeter, this also has a weird looking off axis performance.

It's come down to the T90A (a little cylinder thing) or a FT96H (panel mount) spec sheets here:
http://www.fostexinternational.com/d...Tweeters.shtml

The cheaper FT96H actually looks better performance-wise other than the slightly lumpy response.

Has anyone used either of these?
Doesn anyone have any other recommendations?
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Old 16th April 2007, 12:03 AM   #3
ttan98 is offline ttan98  Australia
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I have a FE167E and thinking of adding a tweeter to it, the dispersion or off axis performance is not very good above 6-8khz, by adding a good tweeter would improve situation greatly. the same with FE207E.

go and do a serach on this forum on "adding a tweeter to full range" you will find an extensive discussion".
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Old 16th April 2007, 04:27 AM   #4
OzMikeH is offline OzMikeH  Australia
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thanks Ttan98.

Having read the thread..

1: wide dispersion on a helper tweeter for a fullrange is not necessarily a good thing. I should look for similar dispersion of the FR driver and tweeter within the crossover freq. range. Since I am fitting phase plugs to widen the HF on my FE207E the factory information is useless to me. I'll just have to estimate what will match and see how it sounds.

2: Ribbon tweeters can be integrated but only with great care. It is easy to get it wrong.

3: I might not want a tweeter after I fit the phase plugs.

4: Filtering the extreme highs and lows off the fullrange driver can help it's mid-range performance.

5: Time coherence is critical for good imaging. I need to figure out what phase offset the high pass capacitor for the tweeter will cause and whether it will be audible. Physical position of the tweeter is minor compared to the effect of the filter components. I need to do some more reading on the phase effect of crossover parts.
I may need to consider some fudge on the Fullrange driver to give it the same phase offset as the tweeter.

My main aims are good imaging and extended response.
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Old 16th April 2007, 04:34 AM   #5
ttan98 is offline ttan98  Australia
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get Sound easy s/w an australian product which will help you calculate the time delay hence offset....

s/w not cheap but fair price, it has so many features, I acquire this s/w and learning heaps....highly techincal if you are into it....an excellent s/w.
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Old 16th April 2007, 11:44 PM   #6
G is offline G  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by OzMikeH
I've given them a good listen and decided I need a super tweeter. The high end isnt there in the flesh and not on the datasheet for the driver either.

I'm thinking of a shaped high pass filter on the tweeter starting at about 12-13kHz where the Fe207E starts rolling off.

I want fair off axis (30 degrees) response and nice flat freq response from 10k right through to 20k.

I've only looked at fostex driver so far.
They need to be same or beter efficiency than the main speakers, (95dB/w/m) which rules out the fostex ribbon tweeter, this also has a weird looking off axis performance.

It's come down to the T90A (a little cylinder thing) or a FT96H (panel mount) spec sheets here:
http://www.fostexinternational.com/d...Tweeters.shtml

The cheaper FT96H actually looks better performance-wise other than the slightly lumpy response.

Has anyone used either of these?
Doesn anyone have any other recommendations?
Take the plunge and put in the phase plugs. You will not regret it. It is easy to do with a steady hand and a sharp exacto knife. After you cut it close with the exacto grab some 180 grit sand paper and smooth it down to a finished edge. Also, make sure you have one of those battery operated keyboard vacuums handy to suck out any debris. It's not that hard.
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Old 17th April 2007, 07:18 AM   #7
OzMikeH is offline OzMikeH  Australia
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Phase plugs are in the mail...
Thanks for the tip with the sandpaper.

I'll also put a brick under the back of the cabinet while I am doing it, then run them for a while that way to shake any bits out.

Planet10 has suggested the much cheaper Fostex FT17. this is a third and a quarter of the price of the other two tweeters I was considering.

thomaseliot is using this combination, Last I heard with a single 1uF capacitor.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...70#post1056970

The power handling of the FT17 is only "30W music power" so I might end up blowing it up anyway. Especially with a simple crossover, the LF will be too much for it.

Planet10 said:
"I actually have FT17s i'm planning on using with with my 207s --- i'm going to start out at 7-8k 1st order series XO -- maybe 2nd order on the tweeter. Experiments i did awhile back with tweeters XOed quite high is that you can get away with a lot."
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Old 17th April 2007, 07:56 AM   #8
G is offline G  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by OzMikeH
Phase plugs are in the mail...
Thanks for the tip with the sandpaper.

I'll also put a brick under the back of the cabinet while I am doing it, then run them for a while that way to shake any bits out.

Planet10 has suggested the much cheaper Fostex FT17. this is a third and a quarter of the price of the other two tweeters I was considering.

thomaseliot is using this combination, Last I heard with a single 1uF capacitor.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...70#post1056970

The power handling of the FT17 is only "30W music power" so I might end up blowing it up anyway. Especially with a simple crossover, the LF will be too much for it.

Planet10 said:
"I actually have FT17s i'm planning on using with with my 207s --- i'm going to start out at 7-8k 1st order series XO -- maybe 2nd order on the tweeter. Experiments i did awhile back with tweeters XOed quite high is that you can get away with a lot."
I'm using FE206Es and their top end might be a little hotter. I would hold off on the tweeters until I give the phase plugs a good listen. I also toe in my speakers slightly and that may make a difference. There is a suggested setup on the FE207E datasheet for running the 207 with the FT17H utilizing a cap anf a t-pad. Just be aware that it will reduce your impedance to 4 ohms if you use the tweeter.
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Old 27th April 2007, 02:30 AM   #9
OzMikeH is offline OzMikeH  Australia
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I think I'll need the tweeter anyway.
the FE207E runs out of puff at about 12kHz, from what i understand phase plugs will help disperse what's already there better, they will not extend frequency response by 8kHz.
I need that top end filled up, otherwise I may as well be listening to cassettes.
So I will be installing a tweeter, the only questions are where, what type and at what crossover frequency.

The frequency can only be determined after I install the phase plugs.

I want to put it underneath the main driver, it is closer to ear height for my seating and has a much higher WAF than something sticking out the top.
Please let me know if this is a horribly wrong thing to do.
I Am skinning over the MDF with some thin plywood, I can then run a quarter round router bit along all edges to take it down to leave a thin line of MDF then stain it all a dark cherry. I was trying to figure out how to hide the edges then I thought I should just make them a feature.
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Old 27th April 2007, 07:33 AM   #10
G is offline G  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by OzMikeH
I think I'll need the tweeter anyway.
the FE207E runs out of puff at about 12kHz, from what i understand phase plugs will help disperse what's already there better, they will not extend frequency response by 8kHz.
I need that top end filled up, otherwise I may as well be listening to cassettes.
So I will be installing a tweeter, the only questions are where, what type and at what crossover frequency.

The frequency can only be determined after I install the phase plugs.

I want to put it underneath the main driver, it is closer to ear height for my seating and has a much higher WAF than something sticking out the top.
Please let me know if this is a horribly wrong thing to do.
I Am skinning over the MDF with some thin plywood, I can then run a quarter round router bit along all edges to take it down to leave a thin line of MDF then stain it all a dark cherry. I was trying to figure out how to hide the edges then I thought I should just make them a feature.
You obviously are free to do what you choose but the FE207E does not "run out of puff" at 12K. Check the spec sheet and ask some people who own them. They are essentially a shielded version of the FE206E with a little higher QTS. I have not found my FE206Es to fall off in the highs at 12KHz and I seriously doubt that Fostex would be selling many of them if they did since they state that the frequency response is "Fo to 20KHz". Just an opinion but you may want to listen to them by themselves in a suitable enclosure before you start diddling with crossover points and tweeters. Just a suggestion.
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