My friend wants me to help him build a pair of bass reflex speakers (he will not have his arm twisted to have BLHs or BIBs !). His driver choice is FE206E or FE207E. Can anybody help with the following questions please ? Thanks -
1. FE207E seems to be the preferred choice for BRs. Is that because it produces lower bass ?
2. Does the FE206E have any advantages over the FE207E in the BR configuration ?
3. I've read that 20l is a better bet than 45l. Is that true for both FE206E and FE207E ? What port diameter/length would be optimal ?
4. I've read that non-parallel internal sides help reduce standing waves. Is this worth doing ?
5. Is the Fostex recommended FE207E double bass reflex a good thing to try ?
He listens to general rock and pop, very little classical/jazz. He has an SS amp. Thanks in advance for any advice proffered.
1. FE207E seems to be the preferred choice for BRs. Is that because it produces lower bass ?
2. Does the FE206E have any advantages over the FE207E in the BR configuration ?
3. I've read that 20l is a better bet than 45l. Is that true for both FE206E and FE207E ? What port diameter/length would be optimal ?
4. I've read that non-parallel internal sides help reduce standing waves. Is this worth doing ?
5. Is the Fostex recommended FE207E double bass reflex a good thing to try ?
He listens to general rock and pop, very little classical/jazz. He has an SS amp. Thanks in advance for any advice proffered.
FE207E would be my choice. It's a higher Q driver so it'll need less correction in a resonant enclosure. The 206 has a whisker more detail perhaps, but there's plenty to spare, and the 207 does indeed go a touch lower. Go to the Projects section here: www.quarter-wave.com -virtual project for both these drivers. Streets ahead of any BR box, fully documented & CAD plans. My top choice if you want a simple to build box.
I have the 207E in a 35l BR.
I tried the Martin King-MLTL but it dosen't work for me...theres a biiiig hole in the mid-base!
I tried the DBR...don't know why, but I didn't like it.
I tried a 20l BR...maybe the best choice, but I prefere the 35l BR because of a little deeper base.
BUT!!!
If rock and pop would be "my" music, I never would buy a Fostex...or any other fullrangedriver
I tried the Martin King-MLTL but it dosen't work for me...theres a biiiig hole in the mid-base!
I tried the DBR...don't know why, but I didn't like it.
I tried a 20l BR...maybe the best choice, but I prefere the 35l BR because of a little deeper base.
BUT!!!
If rock and pop would be "my" music, I never would buy a Fostex...or any other fullrangedriver
Thanks Scottmoose, I'm now reading up on the Quarter Wavelength design stuff. A lot better final sound than BRs ?
Vitalstates, Thanks for the advice but I can't get out much because I keep wanting to listen to music on my new speakers ! New friends means new people saying "....can you make me a pair of those ?" !!! From his point of view, he came round my house and listened to my FE206E loaded BRs and my FE206ES-R loaded BLHs. The cheap/easy BRs were still streets ahead of anything he'd heard before. It was a "I want some, I want some ...." situation. Us full range chaps sometimes forget how great these speakers (even in a BR) sound on first hearing. Bye for now.
Vitalstates, Thanks for the advice but I can't get out much because I keep wanting to listen to music on my new speakers ! New friends means new people saying "....can you make me a pair of those ?" !!! From his point of view, he came round my house and listened to my FE206E loaded BRs and my FE206ES-R loaded BLHs. The cheap/easy BRs were still streets ahead of anything he'd heard before. It was a "I want some, I want some ...." situation. Us full range chaps sometimes forget how great these speakers (even in a BR) sound on first hearing. Bye for now.
Hi David
Thanks for taking my post in the humourous way it was intended. I'm so glad you're not closed to the possibility of 1/4 wave,as in my experience its a world of improvement....There is always an alternative to SS as well, can we lure you to have a look at the dark side.....check out my website, it details my voyage away from BR and SS.
Regards
Ed
Thanks for taking my post in the humourous way it was intended. I'm so glad you're not closed to the possibility of 1/4 wave,as in my experience its a world of improvement....There is always an alternative to SS as well, can we lure you to have a look at the dark side.....check out my website, it details my voyage away from BR and SS.
Regards
Ed
Ah yes... Ed's Vofos are well worth looking into as well. How did I forget those? They certainly beat the MLTLs on dynamics, although they aren't as easy to build. Not that difficult either of course.
Big hole in the midbass? That's exactly what Martin's MLTLs shouldn't have! Sounds like something went pear-shaped with your build (no offense or reflection intended, but they shouldn't have that). None of my five pairs did.
Rock / pop & FR drivers. Thorny one. No FR unit will ever do dynamics as well as a good multi-way, even horn-loaded but then, there aren't many good multi-ways. The problem isn't extension (if I see one more drivelling remark saying that FR drivers can't do bass... I'm sure we've all seen plenty of those comments, usually from people who haven't heard one loaded right, or stuck in a simple BR box or duff horn design) but excursion. Max excursion occurs an octave above Fc, and in most 8in resonant cabinets like the MLTLs this is about 35-40Hz. Which puts max excursion right in the 70-80Hz zone, where most of the energy in rock etc. music occurs. The 206/7 aren't as bad as some in this respect as they've got a decent amount of travel (for FR units) but less than most midbass drivers. They can still do it pretty well though and they can kick like mules in the right cabinet. Ed's Vofos in particular seem to enjoy belting a few things out, probably because they're tuned slightly higher, which pushes the max. excursion point out of the hot-zone.
Big hole in the midbass? That's exactly what Martin's MLTLs shouldn't have! Sounds like something went pear-shaped with your build (no offense or reflection intended, but they shouldn't have that). None of my five pairs did.
Rock / pop & FR drivers. Thorny one. No FR unit will ever do dynamics as well as a good multi-way, even horn-loaded but then, there aren't many good multi-ways. The problem isn't extension (if I see one more drivelling remark saying that FR drivers can't do bass... I'm sure we've all seen plenty of those comments, usually from people who haven't heard one loaded right, or stuck in a simple BR box or duff horn design) but excursion. Max excursion occurs an octave above Fc, and in most 8in resonant cabinets like the MLTLs this is about 35-40Hz. Which puts max excursion right in the 70-80Hz zone, where most of the energy in rock etc. music occurs. The 206/7 aren't as bad as some in this respect as they've got a decent amount of travel (for FR units) but less than most midbass drivers. They can still do it pretty well though and they can kick like mules in the right cabinet. Ed's Vofos in particular seem to enjoy belting a few things out, probably because they're tuned slightly higher, which pushes the max. excursion point out of the hot-zone.
F.A.S.T.
Hi
Fostex' do work for Rock Music if releaved from the lower 2 octaves. Put the FE206E in a small (ca 10 liter) closed box and add somthing like a Eminence 12 LF in BR, playing from 180Hz down. The easy way is using two poweramps and a active xo, but passive xo will also work.
F.A.S.T. -- Fostex And Sub Technology
Result will be a 80 - 100 L floorstander that can look like this.
Hi
Fostex' do work for Rock Music if releaved from the lower 2 octaves. Put the FE206E in a small (ca 10 liter) closed box and add somthing like a Eminence 12 LF in BR, playing from 180Hz down. The easy way is using two poweramps and a active xo, but passive xo will also work.
F.A.S.T. -- Fostex And Sub Technology
Result will be a 80 - 100 L floorstander that can look like this.
larkinrulez said:Ed's Vofos???
The midbass:
I have a sampler of th jazzlable dmp with a great version of "chain of fools"...there is a tom-kick, that really kicks a....
With the MLTL it was almost not listenable
That's compression, rather than a hole. Methinks you might have been expecting too much for an FR unit in a resonant cabinet. The reflex box is tuned substantially higher (although if it's the Fostex design, the 'controlled peak' at Fc is anything but controlled, albeit probably milder with the 207 than the 206), so the maximum excursion point will occur ~120 - 140Hz, where it will be less noticable.
To get strong LF + decent dynamics out of an unsupported FR driver, you need to [quasi]horn load them. Ron's DallasII or the Fostex FE208ESigma cabinet should do the job nicely for the 206. But they're a lot larger and harder build of course. The other way is Ed's -the same thing I suspect Terry Cain used with his Abby: accept slightly reduced extension, tune a touch higher and push the maximum excursion point out of the most critical zone and into a place where it'll be less noticable, if at all. Surprise surprise: TC's speakers were always complimented, and rightly so, on their impressive dynamic capabilities, and Ed's Vofos share very similar sonic traits. They are very 'fast' sounding speakers as a result.
If a simple cabinet is demanded, I'd probably go down the mildly mass-loaded TQWT route, tuned a little higher than usual, a la Ed's Vofo. Otherwise, you need a BLH of some kind. Whatever you do, they won't beat a VOTT or big Tannoy for full-on rock, even in monster horns, but they'll image like electrostatics and certainly make as good or better a job of it than anything else for the price.
When I have a little more time...i will try this one:
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/images/Bruce.gif
Did anyone ever build it?
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/images/Bruce.gif
Did anyone ever build it?
Lots of interesting contributions for me to mull over. Thanks everybody. The speaker with 12” woofer looks good but to be honest it’s too big for his room (and neighbours !). He has seen/heard my 45ltr FE206E BRs and it's this type of speaker (i.e. a single FE206E/FE207E in a plain easy-build cabinet) that appeals to him. He may have subwoofer support for the final setup. He tells me he values clarity and separation over outright 'wallop'.
Vitalstates, I already have a ‘dark side’ amp – Audio Note Kit 1 Signature (used with a modified Sony CD player and FE206ES-R Fostex recommended horns). My FE206E BRs are now attached to my AV system (Yamaha AV Package 59 comprising RX-V359 amp + NS-P110 speakers) and a Marantz CD-63SE. It gives a great AV sound and a great rock music sound (treble/midrange clarity, dynamicism, separation, imaging courtesy of the FE206s, deep rich bass courtesy of the little Yamaha subwoofer). The 'dark side' system is for my mellow 'high quality' listening.
I'm offline now until Tuesday. Thanks again.
Vitalstates, I already have a ‘dark side’ amp – Audio Note Kit 1 Signature (used with a modified Sony CD player and FE206ES-R Fostex recommended horns). My FE206E BRs are now attached to my AV system (Yamaha AV Package 59 comprising RX-V359 amp + NS-P110 speakers) and a Marantz CD-63SE. It gives a great AV sound and a great rock music sound (treble/midrange clarity, dynamicism, separation, imaging courtesy of the FE206s, deep rich bass courtesy of the little Yamaha subwoofer). The 'dark side' system is for my mellow 'high quality' listening.
I'm offline now until Tuesday. Thanks again.
Don't forget the Singulars,
A hybrid enclosure. mass loaded transmission line / backhorn. (I think, I don't understand most of it)
I have heard these, albeit with the AER Mk1 driver and associated notch filter. and They were good for rock, perfect for female vocals, very unforgiving though.
a lot of rock is overcompressed and these will show up any bad recording.
Bass was good enough, easily increased by moving them closer to the wall. Personal taste will determine if you need a sub to help them out, in a small apartment these usually lead to disputes with neighbours anyway. Listen to them for at least 2 weeks before deciding if they need any help in the low end.
These cabinets were actually designed for the FE206 and 207.
I'm building my own set at the moment, waiting for drivers to come.
they are 1200 high and 600mm deep but under 300mm wide, the long narrow front makes them relatively unobtrusive in a small room.
They are heavy though, a full sheet of MDF for each one!
Cabinets arent too hard, 6 small pieces have 45 degree chamfers, other than that it's all rectagles, but be super accurate with your cuts and clamp everything square while the glue cures, they go pear shaped rapidly if you dont get the centre part square.
Larkinrulez: those look interesting. Would be quite pretty too.
A hybrid enclosure. mass loaded transmission line / backhorn. (I think, I don't understand most of it)
I have heard these, albeit with the AER Mk1 driver and associated notch filter. and They were good for rock, perfect for female vocals, very unforgiving though.
a lot of rock is overcompressed and these will show up any bad recording.
Bass was good enough, easily increased by moving them closer to the wall. Personal taste will determine if you need a sub to help them out, in a small apartment these usually lead to disputes with neighbours anyway. Listen to them for at least 2 weeks before deciding if they need any help in the low end.
These cabinets were actually designed for the FE206 and 207.
I'm building my own set at the moment, waiting for drivers to come.
they are 1200 high and 600mm deep but under 300mm wide, the long narrow front makes them relatively unobtrusive in a small room.
They are heavy though, a full sheet of MDF for each one!
Cabinets arent too hard, 6 small pieces have 45 degree chamfers, other than that it's all rectagles, but be super accurate with your cuts and clamp everything square while the glue cures, they go pear shaped rapidly if you dont get the centre part square.
Larkinrulez: those look interesting. Would be quite pretty too.
OK, I confess -Bruce is one of my designs, with CAD & renders by Dave. Dave's got one on the 'to-build' list. Full plans are in the Spawn section of www.frugal-horn.com Their smaller sisters are shown, with some comments, on my friend Steve's site here: http://web.mac.com/scress1958/iWeb/Steves_Tube_Trials/FostexFest.html
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