What to build next (or, convince me to try another fullranger)?

[leadbelly]

OK, I just finished these W3-871S double-BR's (guru's may take a moment to cringe about group delay and port resonance). I am SO happy with them from a price/performance ratio, I really did not expect them to sound this good, they are very enjoyable in every way.

BUT this is not audio nirvana here. Bass is surprisingly good from a 3" driver, but does fall short. Complex passages get muddy, that I really find unacceptable.

So what next? Is a higher quality driver going to fix this, or just reduce it? Multiple wide-range drivers with shallow crossovers? Don't gloss it over, I can take the hard facts

[gychang]

Originally posted by leadbelly
Bass is surprisingly good from a 3" driver, but does fall short.

did u say not enough base, BIB is the answer...

gychang

[Svein_B]

I have not heard anybody being disappointed with the Cyburgs Needle using the w3-871s.

If the room is not too large, and your listening level is moderate, they go both deep and clean.
I just love mine as TV speakers.


Svein B

[Scottmoose]

Gentlemen, don't be so wet.

Leadbelly, you want bass and clarity from your 3in Tang Band? In that case, what you want is a proper corner horn. Here's a quick 'un. This is not optimal -a slower flare would be better, but I wanted to keep length 'manageable' and I only knocked it together in a couple of minutes using a quick & dirty version of Leach's math.

Anyway, chamber is 0.65 litres. St=1.6in^2. Path length 211in. M=0.8 Sl=1431in^2. 1/2 space graph attached. Roughly 100db efficient to 45Hz in 1/2 space -remember to add ~ 6-9db to this below 100Hz to account for the corner loading. Of ocurse, this will need damping down somewhat as the driver isn't actually that efficient itself over the horn's passband, but best to have too much gain than not enough.

More seriously, there are plenty of designs lurking around for larger drivers which might suit you better -unless you go to a full-on horn like the one I've indicated here, or larger (preferably larger) you're always going to be struggling to get meaningful grunt out of these little drivers.

[leadbelly]

Wow, I didn't expect such resolve! As I was a bit unclear and should have said I was disappointed with muddines in the mids on complex passages, I should state I am still very skeptical. As far as I am concerned, the TB's are in their permanent home.

Thanks Scott. I like the idea of building a horn for my FE164, but never come across good designs because of it's Q.

[klocwerk]

those things look tiny... perhaps a larger cabinet would improve the clarity you're looking for.

I'm just starting a pair of Frugel-horns after a lot of research. Budget ranks high on my list of requirements.

[Scottmoose]

164 horn? Easy enough. Try either a BIB: www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp if you want serious bass heft and a very simple build -use the dimensions for the FE167E.

Or a Spawn Horn: http://www.frugal-horn.com/spawn.html Iris or Hiro should suit your 164s down to the ground. Of the two, Iris would probably be a better bet for the Q of the 164, but Hiro will work too -it'll just roll off a little more than a lower Q unit like the 166 would. Dave and I designed these cabinets to take a wide range of drivers.

Scott

[planet10]

Originally posted by Scottmoose
Of the two, Iris would probably be a better bet for the Q of the 164, but Hiro will work too

Drawings for these have not been completed, but except for the cabinet width they are the same as their larger siblings Bruce & Sachiko.

Personally i would go with Iris.

dave

[kristleifur]

Re the 871s:

I found that the amp driving the speakers made a BIG difference. I was using a Marantz 1040 solid-state amp, and went to an 41hz Amp6. It's a bit underpowered, but the bass is faar far deeper and tighter. If you're even remotely interested in building an amp, I'd suggest looking at 41hz.com - the Amp4 should be perfect for driving 871s.

Also, in the Needle thread, people have had some luck with cutting the subsonic bass. Removing bass frequencies that the driver can't reproduce anyway seems to give the driver more leg room to work where it's supposed to.

[gychang]

Originally posted by kristleifur
Re the 871s:
Also, in the Needle thread, people have had some luck with cutting the subsonic bass. Removing bass frequencies that the driver can't reproduce anyway seems to give the driver more leg room to work where it's supposed to.

how is the removing of subsonic bass accomplished, I put in the notch filter in mine, but not finished yet.

gychang