OK, I just finished these W3-871S double-BR's (guru's may take a moment to cringe about group delay and port resonance). I am SO happy with them from a price/performance ratio, I really did not expect them to sound this good, they are very enjoyable in every way.
BUT this is not audio nirvana here. Bass is surprisingly good from a 3" driver, but does fall short. Complex passages get muddy, that I really find unacceptable.
So what next? Is a higher quality driver going to fix this, or just reduce it? Multiple wide-range drivers with shallow crossovers? Don't gloss it over, I can take the hard facts
BUT this is not audio nirvana here. Bass is surprisingly good from a 3" driver, but does fall short. Complex passages get muddy, that I really find unacceptable.
So what next? Is a higher quality driver going to fix this, or just reduce it? Multiple wide-range drivers with shallow crossovers? Don't gloss it over, I can take the hard facts
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Gentlemen, don't be so wet.
Leadbelly, you want bass and clarity from your 3in Tang Band? In that case, what you want is a proper corner horn.
Here's a quick 'un. This is not optimal -a slower flare would be better, but I wanted to keep length 'manageable' and I only knocked it together in a couple of minutes using a quick & dirty version of Leach's math.
Anyway, chamber is 0.65 litres. St=1.6in^2. Path length 211in. M=0.8 Sl=1431in^2. 1/2 space graph attached. Roughly 100db efficient to 45Hz in 1/2 space -remember to add ~ 6-9db to this below 100Hz to account for the corner loading. Of ocurse, this will need damping down somewhat as the driver isn't actually that efficient itself over the horn's passband, but best to have too much gain than not enough.
More seriously, there are plenty of designs lurking around for larger drivers which might suit you better -unless you go to a full-on horn like the one I've indicated here, or larger (preferably larger) you're always going to be struggling to get meaningful grunt out of these little drivers.
Leadbelly, you want bass and clarity from your 3in Tang Band? In that case, what you want is a proper corner horn.
Here's a quick 'un. This is not optimal -a slower flare would be better, but I wanted to keep length 'manageable' and I only knocked it together in a couple of minutes using a quick & dirty version of Leach's math. Anyway, chamber is 0.65 litres. St=1.6in^2. Path length 211in. M=0.8 Sl=1431in^2. 1/2 space graph attached. Roughly 100db efficient to 45Hz in 1/2 space -remember to add ~ 6-9db to this below 100Hz to account for the corner loading. Of ocurse, this will need damping down somewhat as the driver isn't actually that efficient itself over the horn's passband, but best to have too much gain than not enough.
More seriously, there are plenty of designs lurking around for larger drivers which might suit you better -unless you go to a full-on horn like the one I've indicated here, or larger (preferably larger) you're always going to be struggling to get meaningful grunt out of these little drivers.
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Wow, I didn't expect such resolve! As I was a bit unclear and should have said I was disappointed with muddines in the mids on complex passages, I should state I am still very skeptical. As far as I am concerned, the TB's are in their permanent home.
Thanks Scott. I like the idea of building a horn for my FE164, but never come across good designs because of it's Q.
Thanks Scott. I like the idea of building a horn for my FE164, but never come across good designs because of it's Q.
164 horn? Easy enough. Try either a BIB: www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp if you want serious bass heft and a very simple build -use the dimensions for the FE167E.
Or a Spawn Horn: http://www.frugal-horn.com/spawn.html Iris or Hiro should suit your 164s down to the ground. Of the two, Iris would probably be a better bet for the Q of the 164, but Hiro will work too -it'll just roll off a little more than a lower Q unit like the 166 would. Dave and I designed these cabinets to take a wide range of drivers.
Scott
Or a Spawn Horn: http://www.frugal-horn.com/spawn.html Iris or Hiro should suit your 164s down to the ground. Of the two, Iris would probably be a better bet for the Q of the 164, but Hiro will work too -it'll just roll off a little more than a lower Q unit like the 166 would. Dave and I designed these cabinets to take a wide range of drivers.
Scott
Re the 871s:
I found that the amp driving the speakers made a BIG difference. I was using a Marantz 1040 solid-state amp, and went to an 41hz Amp6. It's a bit underpowered, but the bass is faar far deeper and tighter. If you're even remotely interested in building an amp, I'd suggest looking at 41hz.com - the Amp4 should be perfect for driving 871s.
Also, in the Needle thread, people have had some luck with cutting the subsonic bass. Removing bass frequencies that the driver can't reproduce anyway seems to give the driver more leg room to work where it's supposed to.
I found that the amp driving the speakers made a BIG difference. I was using a Marantz 1040 solid-state amp, and went to an 41hz Amp6. It's a bit underpowered, but the bass is faar far deeper and tighter. If you're even remotely interested in building an amp, I'd suggest looking at 41hz.com - the Amp4 should be perfect for driving 871s.
Also, in the Needle thread, people have had some luck with cutting the subsonic bass. Removing bass frequencies that the driver can't reproduce anyway seems to give the driver more leg room to work where it's supposed to.
gychang said:
You can build the Second Order Highpass from this Passive Line-Level Crossover article on Daves site. This filter would ge BEFORE the power amp.
leadbelly said:
I don't mean to spoil the Horn-Party here
but I'm having the same problem with my Audio Nirvana 6.5 (Fostex Clones) in a BL-Horn. They get muddy only at higher listening levels thou, AND it's not one of Dave/Scotts designs, but I tend to believe that complex and loud is a no good idea for most Fullrangerers.cheers, LC
Depends where the problem is as to the cause. And of course you're right: an FR driver, however you load it, is never going to beat a good multiway (preferably horn loaded of course: I'm thinking Altec VOTT or Tannoy Westminster Royal HE here) on something like Pink Floyd, to cite but one evil example, but it should do better than you're describing if you get them loaded right, assuming the drivers are up to it of course. Out of curiosity, which drivers & cabinet are you running, if you don't mind my asking? Where's the main problem? Midband? LF? Higher up?
Best
Scott
Best
Scott
Hi Scott,
The driver is the Audio Nirvana 6.5 standard, the cabinet an old Fostex design, the BK201 here's a Plan. The combination sounds quite nice without any filters (although the BK201 has a pretty bad reputation) and goes down to ~60Hz. But as I said, with complex music, mainly Prog-Rock in my case, and higher levels, the high end really suffers.
best, LC
(...bought the drivers to build a BIB, but things have changed...)
The driver is the Audio Nirvana 6.5 standard, the cabinet an old Fostex design, the BK201 here's a Plan. The combination sounds quite nice without any filters (although the BK201 has a pretty bad reputation) and goes down to ~60Hz. But as I said, with complex music, mainly Prog-Rock in my case, and higher levels, the high end really suffers.
best, LC
(...bought the drivers to build a BIB, but things have changed...)
I know that feeling.
Well, there's nothing a cabinet can do to affect the sound over 1KHz as all it's really doing is providing a stable mounting for the driver. Below that... I reckon we can do better than a 201, though it's not a terrible box. Prog rock is some of the most demanding music to reproduce around so compared to, say, a VOTT, an FR unit is always going to struggle a bit.
Well, there's nothing a cabinet can do to affect the sound over 1KHz as all it's really doing is providing a stable mounting for the driver. Below that... I reckon we can do better than a 201, though it's not a terrible box. Prog rock is some of the most demanding music to reproduce around so compared to, say, a VOTT, an FR unit is always going to struggle a bit.
It ain't that bad Scott, the Horn is most probably gonna stay in my little collection, it's great fun for a lot of music even at high levels, and maybe one day the BIB will come -- simulations just looked to good.
But for now I started working on a 2-Way Design kind of simmular to the World Designs WD25T but with a waveguided tweeter. As I learned from the FRs some "beaming" in the mid and high range helps alot for a good soundstage and imaging -- less room effects (reflexions), more direct sound, more fun!
But for now I started working on a 2-Way Design
kind of simmular to the World Designs WD25T but with a waveguided tweeter. As I learned from the FRs some "beaming" in the mid and high range helps alot for a good soundstage and imaging -- less room effects (reflexions), more direct sound, more fun!
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