Not OT at all! There is an awful amount of overpriced and overhyped stuff on the market. And look at the piezos Geoff is happy with - all you need to do is damp the cheap plastic basket. Besides - piezos are the only tweets that work fine with a "slide rule XO". You can't have cheaper fun without taking your clothes off.
Pit
Pit
Re: Yep....AC G2
JandG,
I had troubles understanding how did you do X-over. So, please correct me if neccesary:
1. Woofer is driven by a plate amp, active x-over at 150 Hz? (2nd order?)
2. B200 is rolled at 4250 Hz with a single 0.22 mH inductor (in parallel with b200 terminals)
3. G2 is conected to the same amplifier as B200, via onle 2 UF cap in series.
I know this is OT, but I have B200's and I have some 12 inch woofers; would like to build an OB; yours looks nice; since a fullrange B200 doesn't do its best at highest octaves...when I saw your OB..WOW...just add a good tweeter...(I may experiment with piezos first)...
JandG said:Ran with a single 2uf cap & no padding, B200 is rolled @ 4250 with a single .22mH foil jobby....also 1st order high pass of 150hz on B200 & ribbon's tube amp. a single cap does that work..I really like the G2 with FR's..some times I tri-amp it, but really no need, I have a match & no resistors for padding needed..I am seriously addicted to ribbons &
FR's now.
JandG,
I had troubles understanding how did you do X-over. So, please correct me if neccesary:
1. Woofer is driven by a plate amp, active x-over at 150 Hz? (2nd order?)
2. B200 is rolled at 4250 Hz with a single 0.22 mH inductor (in parallel with b200 terminals)
3. G2 is conected to the same amplifier as B200, via onle 2 UF cap in series.
I know this is OT, but I have B200's and I have some 12 inch woofers; would like to build an OB; yours looks nice; since a fullrange B200 doesn't do its best at highest octaves...when I saw your OB..WOW...just add a good tweeter...(I may experiment with piezos first)...
Cool, someoneis to try this,, is really good this way.
The BASH plates are 4th order I think. I use it @ 150Hz.
I highpass the 100K tube amp @ 150hz w/ a single .01uf cap @ the amps inputs. I made up a set of plug in types with some Eichmans RCA's & short silver wire, less than 6" leads. the .01uf cap in series w/ + on the inputs....any RCA's would do I am sure.
I then use a .22mH coil in series w/ the + of B200 then Ribbon parrallel off the B200 with a single 2uf cap in series w/ the + of the ribbon..
I have not messed with what I just wrote since I found the match...good stuff.. also no padding on ribbon,,none needed at all..remeber to high pass the amp.. it will keep the ribbon clean , even with only the single 2uf cap & even @ high volume. also,, this is all using test clips off my nice cables.. justs sounds so good that I am in no hurry to do a proper termination,, I will try do that soon though, so I don't have a accident... the mids are crazy nice now & top end is addicting ....Bass is also the best I have heard..as far as quallity of it.. I have lotsa hrs on this set up & everything from hard metal to Bach.. to Nora.. etc..Loreenna M....blues, jazz..all kinds..
The BASH plates are 4th order I think. I use it @ 150Hz.
I highpass the 100K tube amp @ 150hz w/ a single .01uf cap @ the amps inputs. I made up a set of plug in types with some Eichmans RCA's & short silver wire, less than 6" leads. the .01uf cap in series w/ + on the inputs....any RCA's would do I am sure.
I then use a .22mH coil in series w/ the + of B200 then Ribbon parrallel off the B200 with a single 2uf cap in series w/ the + of the ribbon..
I have not messed with what I just wrote since I found the match...good stuff.. also no padding on ribbon,,none needed at all..remeber to high pass the amp.. it will keep the ribbon clean , even with only the single 2uf cap & even @ high volume. also,, this is all using test clips off my nice cables.. justs sounds so good that I am in no hurry to do a proper termination,, I will try do that soon though, so I don't have a accident... the mids are crazy nice now & top end is addicting ....Bass is also the best I have heard..as far as quallity of it.. I have lotsa hrs on this set up & everything from hard metal to Bach.. to Nora.. etc..Loreenna M....blues, jazz..all kinds..
Thanks a lot!
While some consider that B200 is a wonderful fullrange, I'd say that it benefits from some bottom and top support. Then it can do its best-midrange.
I don't want to go far OT, but generally, I agree that fullrangers can benefit from a properly integrated tweeter. Poorly implemented, they are a horror. Piezos offer a good start and cost almost nothing. Later, one can upgrade to ribbons...
While some consider that B200 is a wonderful fullrange, I'd say that it benefits from some bottom and top support. Then it can do its best-midrange.
I don't want to go far OT, but generally, I agree that fullrangers can benefit from a properly integrated tweeter. Poorly implemented, they are a horror. Piezos offer a good start and cost almost nothing. Later, one can upgrade to ribbons...
yes but....
there is no crossover in the key audio zone where most of the music content is and where our ears are most sensitive
also, if you want to stretch the rules a bit...
if the sub is low enough, say below 70 hz, then it doesn't have a direction or position...
and if the tweeter is facing the back, then you're just getting reflections...
hope that helps
paba
there is no crossover in the key audio zone where most of the music content is and where our ears are most sensitive
also, if you want to stretch the rules a bit...
if the sub is low enough, say below 70 hz, then it doesn't have a direction or position...
and if the tweeter is facing the back, then you're just getting reflections...
hope that helps
paba
I have added both a sub and a tweet to my FE166ES-R backloaded horns. The FE166ES-R is full range. The sub is fed in parallel using the high level imputs to plate amp. I adusted the crossover and loudness to blend with horn. It is crossed quite low. The sub is designed similiar to the Cain and Cain Baily using a 10" Seas L26. The tweeter is the Fostex T90A with a 0.68 cap in series with the plus terminal front firing. No loss of full range magic using a sub and tweeter... YMMV.
Bill
Bill
Yes, I do comparisons with B200 ran full range & then play from there, my goal always is not to mess w/ the FR magic with me.. the 4250hz 1st order roll is slow & also the 2uf cap is 10Khz..I detect no loss of the FR magic. OB bass up to 150hz is easy to blend & I can not tell a seam whatsover.I think as long as a person stays above 4K he should be o.k., well that is what my ears tell me..I do like XO the bass @ 70 better, but that also hurts my midrange by not bieng able to HP my tube amps, so a comprimise, but with OB bass you can get away with alot.......My B200's don't go to 70hz proper in my baffles, so 150Hz is a must.If I do not roll the B200 off, then to run a ribbon , I pretty much just go .22uf cap.. which sounds crazy, but does add air or spaciouseness to the sound.... but the way I run it as stated above posts is far superior to the B200 ran fullrange to my ears...Don't get me wrong I love the B200 ran fullrange also...but you would have to listen for yourself to see what I am enjoying..
Much has been covered off already, but i'll add a few comments. I played a lot with helper tweeters on my RS 1197 BD-Pipes.
XOing at ~10k 1st order, with tweeters on the same order of efficiency as the 1197s didn't seem to subtract from the seemlessness of the FRs, it just added air to everything.
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/FALL/bd-pipes.html
Horns seemed to work the best. Probably due to the limited dispersion.
(note that a piezo is almost always horn loaded and if properly XOed can sound fine -- they got their bad rep from people using only the inherent capacitance in the piezo as the XO. This not only XOed them to low and they got really rough but also drove many of the amps used to drive them into ultrasonic oscilllation).
Many horns are way more efficient than the FR they are being used with, and a common trick is to XO them really high so that the attenuation of the 1st order XO brings them down to the right level by the time they meet up with the FR.
The little cone tweeters are pretty good too. The best i've heard are the 2" open-back alnico isophon, and the little 2" thimble tweeters punch well above their weight class ($1 tweeter + $2 Solen cap make a truly frugal-phile(tm) top end -- not really efficient thou)
When we had the 1st of the B200s in North America, their limited HF dispersion had us wondering about adding a ribbon tweeter. But these have the same issues as a dome. they have too wide a horizontal dispersion to create a good match with the top of the FR. Note that JandG is having to XO his ribbons on the order of an octave lower than would be optimal -- the 10 k XO turn-over just brings the level of the tweeter down to where it isn't overwhelming the B200 at the XO of just under 5 k. A trick that seems to work well is to turn the ribbon on its side to limit its horizontal dispertion to better match the top of the FR.
Attached is a picture i just got from a client of his B200 based OB (B200 has plugs and has been treated lightly with C37 (which lowers the noise floor of the cone). The phase plugs and the sideways ribbon allow a higher XO so more of the seemless magic of the FR can be used to a greater extent.
dave
XOing at ~10k 1st order, with tweeters on the same order of efficiency as the 1197s didn't seem to subtract from the seemlessness of the FRs, it just added air to everything.
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/FALL/bd-pipes.html
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Horns seemed to work the best. Probably due to the limited dispersion.
(note that a piezo is almost always horn loaded and if properly XOed can sound fine -- they got their bad rep from people using only the inherent capacitance in the piezo as the XO. This not only XOed them to low and they got really rough but also drove many of the amps used to drive them into ultrasonic oscilllation).
Many horns are way more efficient than the FR they are being used with, and a common trick is to XO them really high so that the attenuation of the 1st order XO brings them down to the right level by the time they meet up with the FR.
The little cone tweeters are pretty good too. The best i've heard are the 2" open-back alnico isophon, and the little 2" thimble tweeters punch well above their weight class ($1 tweeter + $2 Solen cap make a truly frugal-phile(tm) top end -- not really efficient thou)
When we had the 1st of the B200s in North America, their limited HF dispersion had us wondering about adding a ribbon tweeter. But these have the same issues as a dome. they have too wide a horizontal dispersion to create a good match with the top of the FR. Note that JandG is having to XO his ribbons on the order of an octave lower than would be optimal -- the 10 k XO turn-over just brings the level of the tweeter down to where it isn't overwhelming the B200 at the XO of just under 5 k. A trick that seems to work well is to turn the ribbon on its side to limit its horizontal dispertion to better match the top of the FR.
Attached is a picture i just got from a client of his B200 based OB (B200 has plugs and has been treated lightly with C37 (which lowers the noise floor of the cone). The phase plugs and the sideways ribbon allow a higher XO so more of the seemless magic of the FR can be used to a greater extent.
dave
Attachments
Hi JandG ~
I was quite taken by the design of your OB's. Very suave looking. It seems to have
evolved out of a simpler straight rectangular implementation you posted on diy
sometime earlier.
I love the way the wider bottom area integrates into the taller upper area
with a gentle curve as a transition between the 2... very elegant.
You seem to have been inspired when you designed it.
I have read with interest all of your insights about how you integrated these
3 seemingly disparate drivers into one unified field of sound...
very very interesting.
I have been using a single B200 in a simple rectangular baffle for several
months now. I have augmented the bass in 2 ways... both not entirely
satisfactory but workable. One way was to use an old Single Ended Pentode
integrated tube amp with tone controls... dialing in the bass tone control
effectively fills-in a substantial amount of bass on the B200's in spite of the
cancellation issues inherent in the OB paradigm. The other was to use a pair of
cabinet speakers I had around that I placed behind my OB's which integrated
surprising well with the B200's and filled in the bass and even
added some sparkle to the treble region.
However seeing your OB design and reading your posts has inspired me to
evolve the potential of the OB paradigm to its logical conclusion.
I have a few questions that have come up since reading your insights about
how your thinking evolved.
What is the difference you heard between the Fountek NeoCD 3 and the AC G2
on your OB's? Also who makes the AC G2?
Does the combination of your woofer driver and Bash plate amp fill-in the
bass without too much cancellation?
Also, did you ever have the occasion to try a digital EQ on the B200's before
you developed your intriguing 3-way design to see if that alone would
effectively fill in some bass and/or add sparkle to the treble region?
I would deeply appreciate your feedback, JandG. Posting your wonderful images
of your beautifully designed OB's has certainly inspired me.
Warmest Regards ~ Richard
I was quite taken by the design of your OB's. Very suave looking. It seems to have
evolved out of a simpler straight rectangular implementation you posted on diy
sometime earlier.
I love the way the wider bottom area integrates into the taller upper area
with a gentle curve as a transition between the 2... very elegant.
You seem to have been inspired when you designed it.
I have read with interest all of your insights about how you integrated these
3 seemingly disparate drivers into one unified field of sound...
very very interesting.
I have been using a single B200 in a simple rectangular baffle for several
months now. I have augmented the bass in 2 ways... both not entirely
satisfactory but workable. One way was to use an old Single Ended Pentode
integrated tube amp with tone controls... dialing in the bass tone control
effectively fills-in a substantial amount of bass on the B200's in spite of the
cancellation issues inherent in the OB paradigm. The other was to use a pair of
cabinet speakers I had around that I placed behind my OB's which integrated
surprising well with the B200's and filled in the bass and even
added some sparkle to the treble region.
However seeing your OB design and reading your posts has inspired me to
evolve the potential of the OB paradigm to its logical conclusion.
I have a few questions that have come up since reading your insights about
how your thinking evolved.
What is the difference you heard between the Fountek NeoCD 3 and the AC G2
on your OB's? Also who makes the AC G2?
Does the combination of your woofer driver and Bash plate amp fill-in the
bass without too much cancellation?
Also, did you ever have the occasion to try a digital EQ on the B200's before
you developed your intriguing 3-way design to see if that alone would
effectively fill in some bass and/or add sparkle to the treble region?
I would deeply appreciate your feedback, JandG. Posting your wonderful images
of your beautifully designed OB's has certainly inspired me.
Warmest Regards ~ Richard
Through bieng stuburn about not going with digital eq, which I am sure is fine & great tool, I exaustivly tried many, many differant passive combo's w/ B200. & noted all test's with the ribbon integrations. The Fountek CD3 is o.k...just not as nice as a Aurum Cantus G2.. the G2 is a perfect match to the B200 IMHO. but the XO confuguration I use now which is the same as posted above is critical to the entire deal.. as long as one keeps in mind the 100K input of my tube amp for the simple PLLXO of 1st 150Hz a .01uf Vitamin Q or your choice of cap., if differant input impendance , just adjust cap value accourdingly.. the signal is also fed from TVC to BASH plates & to tube amp running B200 & ribbons, I did try tri-amping.. & it was not as nice as the bi-amp.. I use the 4ohm taps on my 300B PP amp.. I have ran many other amps with this set up & exact XO configuration,, same resuts, just diffarnt flavours..I prefer DHT in amps.. but all are nice el-84 , even a little 6sn7 set amp I have does excellent..The BASH plates are excellent for OB bass, I think one would have to go OB bass to get the seemless high quality bass this set up deserves. I am not about to change anything on this setup & it is done. It will be hard for me to tare it down to paint baffles now, might never happen..I see no way I can improve what is happening other than maybe boosting slightly the bottom end, & that is not a sure thing.. I like it as is.. the bass is easy part..the ribbon integration with B200 is not.. but I have conquered it with No use of life killing resistors..except the single coil... but g2 with everthing as stated is perfect match ..all my cd's show the same ..perfect to me. Extremely holographic.. way more than B200 ran alone, with no fight between them..not like crossing a ribbon @ 2500 were they fight..The top end & mids are big magic time now.. & can take very high spl's way more than I can safely take. The new baffles were actually cafefull thought out.. 18" is a great # for b200'.. I do not like folded wings.. they take magic away.. if used around the FR..also, moving the B200 & ribbon apart gave great improvments, the ribbon @ very top edge of baffle was also planned for the ribbon & I think it addes some di-pole characteristics. The B200 & ribbon as close as you can get to each other is also critical.. this is a must..IMO..I am not as studied as many of the posters, but I spend endless hrs testing by ear & reading..more than healthy hours reading actually..I tried active XO's they were sold as fast as I bought them Ashly xr4001, nothing against the Ashly, just I can hear op-amps with ease.. I don't like them.. I don't use them in output stage of my NOS DAC eaither.. so no op-amps in play at all.& I can telll the differance. I am not educated enough on digital XO or eq so I have no real world knowlege of them..I do no that I have little if any loss of effiency with this setup.. which was part of the goal.. I could tell the ribbon had a better top end to start this all off. but what ended up happening is the excellent midrange of the b200 got REALLY good when releaved of top end duty..& 150HZ cut, 1st PLLXO also helped bigtime in same area.. the mids & top. You have to run PLLXO to run ribbon with single 2uf cap @ 10K..if not it will audibly distort at high volume.. now there is no audible distortion.. if there is ,it is the good king, like DHT kind..!!!!!!*s* So basically I wouldn't change a thing on this now..also notice I run a 10"OB bass driver of high quality.. if your room is farlly small 10" will work fine..the M26wr-09-08 isn't even a good supposed OB canidate..but works very well. no seem.. & quality bass,, best I have heard..No thunder..just excellent speed & clarity..realism..no boom whatsover..The BASH plates are fast..& tough.. something to look at. The integrated amp trick you tried is a good one. I do the same with a scott299B in simple OB bedroom system, single Calrad 12ae w/ small 24"x24" baffle,& use the bass boost switch & tone controles to adjust the bottom, works excellent...no boom there eaither, just fills in.. The insertion loss w/ b200 system with the .01uf PLLXO cap is so minimal it is not worth calculating..The Aurum Cantus G2si might be a excellent canidate for this as it is about 80-100$ cheaper than the G2, but same efficiency..The wider bootom end of baffle also was a plan to get bass driver close as possible to floor for boost & wider for also more bottom help.. both worked..
Hi JandG ~
I am deeply appreciative of your excellent deeper foray into the mysteries of how
you achieved such fantastic results with your OB explorations.
There is quite a bit of information you were kind to share with me (and of course
everyone who is interested in the wonderful dipole saturated holographic sound
that OB potentially delivers).
There are several references that I am not yet able to understand and it will
take several readings until some of the technical data falls into place in my
Pleistocene brain.
For example I am not familiar with your reference to:
"You have to run PLLXO to run ribbon with single 2uf cap @ 10K..."
Also: "...the signal is also fed from TVC to BASH plates & to tube amp running
B200 & ribbons..." I am not certain what TVC refers to.
It sounds like you crossed over the B200's with the Aurum Cantus 2G at
4250... I was originally thinking (purely speculative) of crossing it over higher...
at 7000Khz... but owing to your highly tuned listening skills I imagine you hit
the nail of the head with the crossover.
Your insight that "...the ribbon integration with B200 is not.. but I have conquered
it with No use of life killing resistors..except the single coil... but g2 with everything
as stated is perfect match..." is tremendously exciting to hear.
Really tremendous!!! Especially because for some time now I have been wondering
if a sophisticated ribbon tweeter could possibly integrate with the B200's.
Perhaps anyone who has not worked with the B200 for as long as I have can
fully appreciate what you have done, JandG... but I can "hear" everything you
are saying as it translates in my mind to what I know and understand about
the potential of the B200 in OB to make aural holographic magic that nothing
else I have ever heard even comes close to.
I was thinking of using the DAYTON IB385-8 15" IB SUBWOOFER available from
Parts Express. They state that: The Dayton Loudspeaker IB series subwoofers are
designed to produce extremely low, clean, uncolored bass in infinite baffle
situations.
Apparently that have good self-damping characteristics.
I looked at the Bash... very nice indeed. Do you use one to connect your
subwoofers in series or use separate Bash's for each baffle?
I agree that tubes and the B200 have an affinity with one another... I can only
imagine the synergy tubes have with the Aurum Cantus G2 ribbon tweeters...
it excites me tremendously to think of how silky the sound up there must
be. I notice Andre sells the Cantus.
Your design may be form following function but it still is a lovely visual solution
to the usual straight board approach... I really like it. It is interesting that you
feel that the B200's and ribbon tweeters need to be close for a more seamless
integration. Did you try placing the ribbon tweeter in a horizontal position?
I once read that it could help with a wider dispersion for wider off-axis resolution
(no real experience of my own here).
I wished you lived closer, JandG, Deborah and I would love to stop by your home
for a listen to your magical OB's... what a treat that would be. Deb loves music
even more than I do and she loves tubes and the B200 on OB. At least we both
are Westcoasters. I live in Ojai, Calfornia... in absolute terms not terribly far from
you in Washington.
Thanks so much, JandG for your kindness and help in getting me to understand
the important details of how you were able to get everything to work so magically
with the minimum of circuit additions which I agree kills the delicacy of the music.
Now I need to do some homework to untangle what for me is a bit over-my-head
technical information.
Warmest Regards ~ Richard
I am deeply appreciative of your excellent deeper foray into the mysteries of how
you achieved such fantastic results with your OB explorations.
There is quite a bit of information you were kind to share with me (and of course
everyone who is interested in the wonderful dipole saturated holographic sound
that OB potentially delivers).
There are several references that I am not yet able to understand and it will
take several readings until some of the technical data falls into place in my
Pleistocene brain.
For example I am not familiar with your reference to:
"You have to run PLLXO to run ribbon with single 2uf cap @ 10K..."
Also: "...the signal is also fed from TVC to BASH plates & to tube amp running
B200 & ribbons..." I am not certain what TVC refers to.
It sounds like you crossed over the B200's with the Aurum Cantus 2G at
4250... I was originally thinking (purely speculative) of crossing it over higher...
at 7000Khz... but owing to your highly tuned listening skills I imagine you hit
the nail of the head with the crossover.
Your insight that "...the ribbon integration with B200 is not.. but I have conquered
it with No use of life killing resistors..except the single coil... but g2 with everything
as stated is perfect match..." is tremendously exciting to hear.
Really tremendous!!! Especially because for some time now I have been wondering
if a sophisticated ribbon tweeter could possibly integrate with the B200's.
Perhaps anyone who has not worked with the B200 for as long as I have can
fully appreciate what you have done, JandG... but I can "hear" everything you
are saying as it translates in my mind to what I know and understand about
the potential of the B200 in OB to make aural holographic magic that nothing
else I have ever heard even comes close to.
I was thinking of using the DAYTON IB385-8 15" IB SUBWOOFER available from
Parts Express. They state that: The Dayton Loudspeaker IB series subwoofers are
designed to produce extremely low, clean, uncolored bass in infinite baffle
situations.
Apparently that have good self-damping characteristics.
I looked at the Bash... very nice indeed. Do you use one to connect your
subwoofers in series or use separate Bash's for each baffle?
I agree that tubes and the B200 have an affinity with one another... I can only
imagine the synergy tubes have with the Aurum Cantus G2 ribbon tweeters...
it excites me tremendously to think of how silky the sound up there must
be. I notice Andre sells the Cantus.
Your design may be form following function but it still is a lovely visual solution
to the usual straight board approach... I really like it. It is interesting that you
feel that the B200's and ribbon tweeters need to be close for a more seamless
integration. Did you try placing the ribbon tweeter in a horizontal position?
I once read that it could help with a wider dispersion for wider off-axis resolution
(no real experience of my own here).
I wished you lived closer, JandG, Deborah and I would love to stop by your home
for a listen to your magical OB's... what a treat that would be. Deb loves music
even more than I do and she loves tubes and the B200 on OB. At least we both
are Westcoasters. I live in Ojai, Calfornia... in absolute terms not terribly far from
you in Washington.
Thanks so much, JandG for your kindness and help in getting me to understand
the important details of how you were able to get everything to work so magically
with the minimum of circuit additions which I agree kills the delicacy of the music.
Now I need to do some homework to untangle what for me is a bit over-my-head
technical information.
Warmest Regards ~ Richard
Hi JandG ~
I carefully reread your posts a few times and there is one set of values that
appears confusing to me.
In this post you mention:
"You have to run PLLXO to run ribbon with single 2uf cap @ 10K..if not it
will audibly distort at high volume.. now there is no audible distortion..."
and then you mention:
"Ran with a single 2uf cap & no padding, B200 is rolled @ 4250 with a single
.22mH foil jobby..."
What happens to the signal between the 4250Hz of the upper cut off point of the
B200 and the beginning of the entrance at 10k of the ribbon tweeter?
I may not have read that right. If you have some insights you can share
with me about those crossover points I would be deeply grateful.
Warm Regards ~ Richard
I carefully reread your posts a few times and there is one set of values that
appears confusing to me.
In this post you mention:
"You have to run PLLXO to run ribbon with single 2uf cap @ 10K..if not it
will audibly distort at high volume.. now there is no audible distortion..."
and then you mention:
"Ran with a single 2uf cap & no padding, B200 is rolled @ 4250 with a single
.22mH foil jobby..."
What happens to the signal between the 4250Hz of the upper cut off point of the
B200 and the beginning of the entrance at 10k of the ribbon tweeter?
I may not have read that right. If you have some insights you can share
with me about those crossover points I would be deeply grateful.
Warm Regards ~ Richard
- RichardW - said:
2 things. The on-axis response of the unmodded b200 is rising, so the effect of the inductor takes a while. And the ribbon is more efficient than the B200 so even with the 1st order roll-off it still has output greater then the b200 (i'd guess) a half-octave or so below the 10k
dave
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