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Old 9th March 2007, 01:18 PM   #31
Geoff H is offline Geoff H  Australia
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I have to agree with the comments about cheap fun and crossover points being outside the critical area. Also Dave only hinted at modifying drivers. It does not take much effort to improve some widerange drivers, but can be very rewarding. Have a look at what smokehouse bob gets up to.
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Old 9th March 2007, 01:18 PM   #32
Vix is offline Vix  Yugoslavia
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Quote:
Originally posted by planet10
Attached is a picture i just got from a client of his B200 based OB (B200 has plugs and has been treated lightly with C37 (which lowers the noise floor of the cone). The phase plugs and the sideways ribbon allow a higher XO so more of the seemless magic of the FR can be used to a greater extent.

dave
Thanks Dave!

Is it possible to know the X-over points of that one (between B200 and ribbon, and the woofer as well)?

Thanks,

Vix
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Old 9th March 2007, 06:30 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vix
Is it possible to know the X-over points of that one (between B200 and ribbon, and the woofer as well)?
I'll ask.

I have drivers accumulated for something of similar concept. JX150, FE108eS, and AC ribbon. Not real high in the queue thou.

dave
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Old 9th March 2007, 11:07 PM   #34
Vix is offline Vix  Yugoslavia
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Thanks a lot
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Old 10th March 2007, 05:00 PM   #35
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Hi JandG ~

I was quite taken by the design of your OB's. Very suave looking. It seems to have
evolved out of a simpler straight rectangular implementation you posted on diy
sometime earlier.

I love the way the wider bottom area integrates into the taller upper area
with a gentle curve as a transition between the 2... very elegant.
You seem to have been inspired when you designed it.

I have read with interest all of your insights about how you integrated these
3 seemingly disparate drivers into one unified field of sound...
very very interesting.

I have been using a single B200 in a simple rectangular baffle for several
months now. I have augmented the bass in 2 ways... both not entirely
satisfactory but workable. One way was to use an old Single Ended Pentode
integrated tube amp with tone controls... dialing in the bass tone control
effectively fills-in a substantial amount of bass on the B200's in spite of the
cancellation issues inherent in the OB paradigm. The other was to use a pair of
cabinet speakers I had around that I placed behind my OB's which integrated
surprising well with the B200's and filled in the bass and even
added some sparkle to the treble region.

However seeing your OB design and reading your posts has inspired me to
evolve the potential of the OB paradigm to its logical conclusion.

I have a few questions that have come up since reading your insights about
how your thinking evolved.

What is the difference you heard between the Fountek NeoCD 3 and the AC G2
on your OB's? Also who makes the AC G2?

Does the combination of your woofer driver and Bash plate amp fill-in the
bass without too much cancellation?

Also, did you ever have the occasion to try a digital EQ on the B200's before
you developed your intriguing 3-way design to see if that alone would
effectively fill in some bass and/or add sparkle to the treble region?

I would deeply appreciate your feedback, JandG. Posting your wonderful images
of your beautifully designed OB's has certainly inspired me.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard
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Old 10th March 2007, 06:28 PM   #36
JandG is offline JandG  United States
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Through bieng stuburn about not going with digital eq, which I am sure is fine & great tool, I exaustivly tried many, many differant passive combo's w/ B200. & noted all test's with the ribbon integrations. The Fountek CD3 is o.k...just not as nice as a Aurum Cantus G2.. the G2 is a perfect match to the B200 IMHO. but the XO confuguration I use now which is the same as posted above is critical to the entire deal.. as long as one keeps in mind the 100K input of my tube amp for the simple PLLXO of 1st 150Hz a .01uf Vitamin Q or your choice of cap., if differant input impendance , just adjust cap value accourdingly.. the signal is also fed from TVC to BASH plates & to tube amp running B200 & ribbons, I did try tri-amping.. & it was not as nice as the bi-amp.. I use the 4ohm taps on my 300B PP amp.. I have ran many other amps with this set up & exact XO configuration,, same resuts, just diffarnt flavours..I prefer DHT in amps.. but all are nice el-84 , even a little 6sn7 set amp I have does excellent..The BASH plates are excellent for OB bass, I think one would have to go OB bass to get the seemless high quality bass this set up deserves. I am not about to change anything on this setup & it is done. It will be hard for me to tare it down to paint baffles now, might never happen..I see no way I can improve what is happening other than maybe boosting slightly the bottom end, & that is not a sure thing.. I like it as is.. the bass is easy part..the ribbon integration with B200 is not.. but I have conquered it with No use of life killing resistors..except the single coil... but g2 with everthing as stated is perfect match ..all my cd's show the same ..perfect to me. Extremely holographic.. way more than B200 ran alone, with no fight between them..not like crossing a ribbon @ 2500 were they fight..The top end & mids are big magic time now.. & can take very high spl's way more than I can safely take. The new baffles were actually cafefull thought out.. 18" is a great # for b200'.. I do not like folded wings.. they take magic away.. if used around the FR..also, moving the B200 & ribbon apart gave great improvments, the ribbon @ very top edge of baffle was also planned for the ribbon & I think it addes some di-pole characteristics. The B200 & ribbon as close as you can get to each other is also critical.. this is a must..IMO..I am not as studied as many of the posters, but I spend endless hrs testing by ear & reading..more than healthy hours reading actually..I tried active XO's they were sold as fast as I bought them Ashly xr4001, nothing against the Ashly, just I can hear op-amps with ease.. I don't like them.. I don't use them in output stage of my NOS DAC eaither.. so no op-amps in play at all.& I can telll the differance. I am not educated enough on digital XO or eq so I have no real world knowlege of them..I do no that I have little if any loss of effiency with this setup.. which was part of the goal.. I could tell the ribbon had a better top end to start this all off. but what ended up happening is the excellent midrange of the b200 got REALLY good when releaved of top end duty..& 150HZ cut, 1st PLLXO also helped bigtime in same area.. the mids & top. You have to run PLLXO to run ribbon with single 2uf cap @ 10K..if not it will audibly distort at high volume.. now there is no audible distortion.. if there is ,it is the good king, like DHT kind..!!!!!!*s* So basically I wouldn't change a thing on this now..also notice I run a 10"OB bass driver of high quality.. if your room is farlly small 10" will work fine..the M26wr-09-08 isn't even a good supposed OB canidate..but works very well. no seem.. & quality bass,, best I have heard..No thunder..just excellent speed & clarity..realism..no boom whatsover..The BASH plates are fast..& tough.. something to look at. The integrated amp trick you tried is a good one. I do the same with a scott299B in simple OB bedroom system, single Calrad 12ae w/ small 24"x24" baffle,& use the bass boost switch & tone controles to adjust the bottom, works excellent...no boom there eaither, just fills in.. The insertion loss w/ b200 system with the .01uf PLLXO cap is so minimal it is not worth calculating..The Aurum Cantus G2si might be a excellent canidate for this as it is about 80-100$ cheaper than the G2, but same efficiency..The wider bootom end of baffle also was a plan to get bass driver close as possible to floor for boost & wider for also more bottom help.. both worked..
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Old 10th March 2007, 09:57 PM   #37
dmason is offline dmason  United States
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JandG

I have to ask how you like the Calrads? I think I saw them on eBay two months ago?? They say, "Coral," when I look at them. Their mono design 6BM8 looks the business as well. Maybe the Alnico Calrads are unsung in thedipole stakes...
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Old 10th March 2007, 09:58 PM   #38
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Hi JandG ~

I am deeply appreciative of your excellent deeper foray into the mysteries of how
you achieved such fantastic results with your OB explorations.

There is quite a bit of information you were kind to share with me (and of course
everyone who is interested in the wonderful dipole saturated holographic sound
that OB potentially delivers).

There are several references that I am not yet able to understand and it will
take several readings until some of the technical data falls into place in my
Pleistocene brain.

For example I am not familiar with your reference to:

"You have to run PLLXO to run ribbon with single 2uf cap @ 10K..."

Also: "...the signal is also fed from TVC to BASH plates & to tube amp running
B200 & ribbons..." I am not certain what TVC refers to.

It sounds like you crossed over the B200's with the Aurum Cantus 2G at
4250... I was originally thinking (purely speculative) of crossing it over higher...
at 7000Khz... but owing to your highly tuned listening skills I imagine you hit
the nail of the head with the crossover.

Your insight that "...the ribbon integration with B200 is not.. but I have conquered
it with No use of life killing resistors..except the single coil... but g2 with everything
as stated is perfect match..." is tremendously exciting to hear.
Really tremendous!!! Especially because for some time now I have been wondering
if a sophisticated ribbon tweeter could possibly integrate with the B200's.

Perhaps anyone who has not worked with the B200 for as long as I have can
fully appreciate what you have done, JandG... but I can "hear" everything you
are saying as it translates in my mind to what I know and understand about
the potential of the B200 in OB to make aural holographic magic that nothing
else I have ever heard even comes close to.

I was thinking of using the DAYTON IB385-8 15" IB SUBWOOFER available from
Parts Express. They state that: The Dayton Loudspeaker IB series subwoofers are
designed to produce extremely low, clean, uncolored bass in infinite baffle
situations.

Apparently that have good self-damping characteristics.

I looked at the Bash... very nice indeed. Do you use one to connect your
subwoofers in series or use separate Bash's for each baffle?

I agree that tubes and the B200 have an affinity with one another... I can only
imagine the synergy tubes have with the Aurum Cantus G2 ribbon tweeters...
it excites me tremendously to think of how silky the sound up there must
be. I notice Andre sells the Cantus.

Your design may be form following function but it still is a lovely visual solution
to the usual straight board approach... I really like it. It is interesting that you
feel that the B200's and ribbon tweeters need to be close for a more seamless
integration. Did you try placing the ribbon tweeter in a horizontal position?
I once read that it could help with a wider dispersion for wider off-axis resolution
(no real experience of my own here).

I wished you lived closer, JandG, Deborah and I would love to stop by your home
for a listen to your magical OB's... what a treat that would be. Deb loves music
even more than I do and she loves tubes and the B200 on OB. At least we both
are Westcoasters. I live in Ojai, Calfornia... in absolute terms not terribly far from
you in Washington.

Thanks so much, JandG for your kindness and help in getting me to understand
the important details of how you were able to get everything to work so magically
with the minimum of circuit additions which I agree kills the delicacy of the music.

Now I need to do some homework to untangle what for me is a bit over-my-head
technical information.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard
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Old 13th March 2007, 09:44 PM   #39
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Hi JandG ~

I carefully reread your posts a few times and there is one set of values that
appears confusing to me.

In this post you mention:

"You have to run PLLXO to run ribbon with single 2uf cap @ 10K..if not it
will audibly distort at high volume.. now there is no audible distortion..."

and then you mention:

"Ran with a single 2uf cap & no padding, B200 is rolled @ 4250 with a single
.22mH foil jobby..."

What happens to the signal between the 4250Hz of the upper cut off point of the
B200 and the beginning of the entrance at 10k of the ribbon tweeter?

I may not have read that right. If you have some insights you can share
with me about those crossover points I would be deeply grateful.

Warm Regards ~ Richard
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Old 13th March 2007, 10:19 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by - RichardW -
What happens to the signal between the 4250Hz of the upper cut off point of the
B200 and the beginning of the entrance at 10k of the ribbon tweeter?
2 things. The on-axis response of the unmodded b200 is rising, so the effect of the inductor takes a while. And the ribbon is more efficient than the B200 so even with the 1st order roll-off it still has output greater then the b200 (i'd guess) a half-octave or so below the 10k

dave
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