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Old 7th March 2007, 12:23 PM   #21
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Not OT at all! There is an awful amount of overpriced and overhyped stuff on the market. And look at the piezos Geoff is happy with - all you need to do is damp the cheap plastic basket. Besides - piezos are the only tweets that work fine with a "slide rule XO". You can't have cheaper fun without taking your clothes off.

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Old 7th March 2007, 02:33 PM   #22
Vix is offline Vix  Yugoslavia
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Default Re: Yep....AC G2

Quote:
Originally posted by JandG
Ran with a single 2uf cap & no padding, B200 is rolled @ 4250 with a single .22mH foil jobby....also 1st order high pass of 150hz on B200 & ribbon's tube amp. a single cap does that work..I really like the G2 with FR's..some times I tri-amp it, but really no need, I have a match & no resistors for padding needed..I am seriously addicted to ribbons & Click the image to open in full size.
FR's now.
JandG,

I had troubles understanding how did you do X-over. So, please correct me if neccesary:

1. Woofer is driven by a plate amp, active x-over at 150 Hz? (2nd order?)
2. B200 is rolled at 4250 Hz with a single 0.22 mH inductor (in parallel with b200 terminals)
3. G2 is conected to the same amplifier as B200, via onle 2 UF cap in series.

I know this is OT, but I have B200's and I have some 12 inch woofers; would like to build an OB; yours looks nice; since a fullrange B200 doesn't do its best at highest octaves...when I saw your OB..WOW...just add a good tweeter...(I may experiment with piezos first)...
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Old 8th March 2007, 02:19 AM   #23
JandG is offline JandG  United States
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Cool, someoneis to try this,, is really good this way.
The BASH plates are 4th order I think. I use it @ 150Hz.
I highpass the 100K tube amp @ 150hz w/ a single .01uf cap @ the amps inputs. I made up a set of plug in types with some Eichmans RCA's & short silver wire, less than 6" leads. the .01uf cap in series w/ + on the inputs....any RCA's would do I am sure.
I then use a .22mH coil in series w/ the + of B200 then Ribbon parrallel off the B200 with a single 2uf cap in series w/ the + of the ribbon..
I have not messed with what I just wrote since I found the match...good stuff.. also no padding on ribbon,,none needed at all..remeber to high pass the amp.. it will keep the ribbon clean , even with only the single 2uf cap & even @ high volume. also,, this is all using test clips off my nice cables.. justs sounds so good that I am in no hurry to do a proper termination,, I will try do that soon though, so I don't have a accident... the mids are crazy nice now & top end is addicting ....Bass is also the best I have heard..as far as quallity of it.. I have lotsa hrs on this set up & everything from hard metal to Bach.. to Nora.. etc..Loreenna M....blues, jazz..all kinds..
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Old 8th March 2007, 10:38 AM   #24
Vix is offline Vix  Yugoslavia
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Thanks a lot!

While some consider that B200 is a wonderful fullrange, I'd say that it benefits from some bottom and top support. Then it can do its best-midrange.

I don't want to go far OT, but generally, I agree that fullrangers can benefit from a properly integrated tweeter. Poorly implemented, they are a horror. Piezos offer a good start and cost almost nothing. Later, one can upgrade to ribbons...
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Old 8th March 2007, 09:17 PM   #25
uzziah is offline uzziah  Norway
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i don't know anything about it, but doesn't adding a tweeter and maybe a sub as well pretty much destroy the whole point of fullrange? suddenly your fullrange driver is a midrange ....
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Old 8th March 2007, 09:22 PM   #26
paba is offline paba  Canada
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yes but....

there is no crossover in the key audio zone where most of the music content is and where our ears are most sensitive

also, if you want to stretch the rules a bit...

if the sub is low enough, say below 70 hz, then it doesn't have a direction or position...
and if the tweeter is facing the back, then you're just getting reflections...

hope that helps
paba
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Old 8th March 2007, 10:00 PM   #27
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I have added both a sub and a tweet to my FE166ES-R backloaded horns. The FE166ES-R is full range. The sub is fed in parallel using the high level imputs to plate amp. I adusted the crossover and loudness to blend with horn. It is crossed quite low. The sub is designed similiar to the Cain and Cain Baily using a 10" Seas L26. The tweeter is the Fostex T90A with a 0.68 cap in series with the plus terminal front firing. No loss of full range magic using a sub and tweeter... YMMV.

Bill
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Old 9th March 2007, 12:09 AM   #28
JandG is offline JandG  United States
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Yes, I do comparisons with B200 ran full range & then play from there, my goal always is not to mess w/ the FR magic with me.. the 4250hz 1st order roll is slow & also the 2uf cap is 10Khz..I detect no loss of the FR magic. OB bass up to 150hz is easy to blend & I can not tell a seam whatsover.I think as long as a person stays above 4K he should be o.k., well that is what my ears tell me..I do like XO the bass @ 70 better, but that also hurts my midrange by not bieng able to HP my tube amps, so a comprimise, but with OB bass you can get away with alot.......My B200's don't go to 70hz proper in my baffles, so 150Hz is a must.If I do not roll the B200 off, then to run a ribbon , I pretty much just go .22uf cap.. which sounds crazy, but does add air or spaciouseness to the sound.... but the way I run it as stated above posts is far superior to the B200 ran fullrange to my ears...Don't get me wrong I love the B200 ran fullrange also...but you would have to listen for yourself to see what I am enjoying..
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Old 9th March 2007, 12:50 AM   #29
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I will have to try what you have suggested to see how it compares to running the FE166ES-R full range. It will be an interesting experiment.

Bill
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Old 9th March 2007, 04:23 AM   #30
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Much has been covered off already, but i'll add a few comments. I played a lot with helper tweeters on my RS 1197 BD-Pipes.

XOing at ~10k 1st order, with tweeters on the same order of efficiency as the 1197s didn't seem to subtract from the seemlessness of the FRs, it just added air to everything.

http://www.t-linespeakers.org/FALL/bd-pipes.html

Click the image to open in full size.

Horns seemed to work the best. Probably due to the limited dispersion.

(note that a piezo is almost always horn loaded and if properly XOed can sound fine -- they got their bad rep from people using only the inherent capacitance in the piezo as the XO. This not only XOed them to low and they got really rough but also drove many of the amps used to drive them into ultrasonic oscilllation).

Many horns are way more efficient than the FR they are being used with, and a common trick is to XO them really high so that the attenuation of the 1st order XO brings them down to the right level by the time they meet up with the FR.

The little cone tweeters are pretty good too. The best i've heard are the 2" open-back alnico isophon, and the little 2" thimble tweeters punch well above their weight class ($1 tweeter + $2 Solen cap make a truly frugal-phile(tm) top end -- not really efficient thou)

When we had the 1st of the B200s in North America, their limited HF dispersion had us wondering about adding a ribbon tweeter. But these have the same issues as a dome. they have too wide a horizontal dispersion to create a good match with the top of the FR. Note that JandG is having to XO his ribbons on the order of an octave lower than would be optimal -- the 10 k XO turn-over just brings the level of the tweeter down to where it isn't overwhelming the B200 at the XO of just under 5 k. A trick that seems to work well is to turn the ribbon on its side to limit its horizontal dispertion to better match the top of the FR.

Attached is a picture i just got from a client of his B200 based OB (B200 has plugs and has been treated lightly with C37 (which lowers the noise floor of the cone). The phase plugs and the sideways ribbon allow a higher XO so more of the seemless magic of the FR can be used to a greater extent.

dave
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File Type: jpg lesterb200-obs.jpg (45.2 KB, 753 views)
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