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Old 19th February 2007, 09:52 PM   #21
britbug is offline britbug  United States
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Wow, nice extension into the 30 s.
I'll have a go & report.
G
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Old 19th February 2007, 10:13 PM   #22
pjanda1 is offline pjanda1  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scottmoose
For a regular BIB, you'd be looking at a driver about 39in off the floor, fractionally off-vertical axis for most of us, which is beneficial in flattening the rising response of the drivers. Unless of course higher SPLs for the treble are desired, as some people wish.
Again, I don't know what dims you're looking at for the Lowthers, as a few have floated around. With GM's Lowther dims this should be a non-issue.
39" shouldn't be a problem either, but most of the 8"'s will be much higher. The Fostex designs, for example, look to be around 50" off the floor. Of course most of these drivers sound best off axis, in my opinions some will be hardly tolerable even then due to the excessive treble.

However, having experimented with driver height considerably (with the same set of drivers), I can unequivically say that drivers above listening height sound really weird to me (low driver position is less odd). I am constantly looking up when listening. As I cross the axis in front of my listening position, properly adjusting the treble balance by finding the best off axis angle is easy no matter the driver height. However, nothing can keep those high drivers from sounding too far off the ground.

No need for snotty comments. You seem to have misunderstood my first post, so I felt the need to be explicitly clear. You also may have no problem with sound coming from an unnatural place. Some folks like the front row of a movie theater too. For every sonic fault, there is someone seemingly impervious to it. This one bothers me, so I thought I'd warn anybody considering building the big 'uns.

pj
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Old 19th February 2007, 10:40 PM   #23
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I beg your pardon? I have an ironic sense of humor, as you've probably noticed, but nothing I've ever posted is intended to be insulting. Quite the reverse. I've got better things to do with my time than waste it writing offensive remarks about people. Sorry you took anything I wrote that way.

Yes, the driver height in the above DX2 cabinet Greg designed should be a good compromise for in-room listening. BTW -the zdriver position listed puts the driver 39in from the ground, depending on build material (that's why I mentioned the 39in from the ground). It's actually the same length & position as TC's old 1354 cabinet.

Re the height of most of the 8in ones -kind of. I designed (if you can call it that) a goodly proportion of the BIBs on the Zilla pages -the ones I didn't do GM did. When I got to the 8in drivers, I'd had a few requests not to compromise line-length & retain full half-wave tuning down to measured Fs, or as near as practicable, which is why most of them are so tall. As you note, it can theoreticaly be of use for some units, being pushed off axis, & some people don't seem to mind it, but as it happens, I don't like it much myself either. A couple of inches fine, a foot or two? Nah, not for me. I've mentioned this before a few times on the main BIB page, but the posts not surprisingly get lost in that monster: you can chop all of them, aside from the hemp and B200 cabinets, down to the same 138in (70in tall cabinet) as the original, and the DX2 Lowther cab mentioned here. Looses a bit of extension, but easier to live with, and 226Hz is plenty for most people. I really should see if we can upgrade the BIB pages at some point to include Greg's folding sheet etc & re-work the intro a bit, but time is the problem.

The DX2 box is shorter because the driver actually has a pretty high Fs compared to, say, an FE206E -very few of the measured T/S parameters are anything like those Lowther claim on their site. The ones I use (and I believe GM use) are those measured by, and listed on, Martin King's site.
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Old 19th February 2007, 11:37 PM   #24
GM is online now GM  United States
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Greets!

Different strokes........ though other than the odd amphitheater, just about every place I've listened to live music they were either on a stage above me or they were standing/me sitting, ditto movies, so looking up a bit is more natural than looking at other angles. That said, there are limits and then there's floor bounce and eigenmode (standing wave) differences to consider that audibly effect the presentation. If they're way off axis, then of course they need to be angled down to address all these issues, since as you note, over toeing/whatever alone isn't going to work.

Really, some of the best sounding systems I've done were truly corner loaded, either at the ceiling or floor, with a fairly convincing 3D sound field with a good recording, so if there's no visual cues most folks didn't have a clue where the speakers are.

GM
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Old 20th February 2007, 07:43 AM   #25
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Good point. Removing the direct radiatior from the equation and completely utilising corner loading can be very effective. I heard a pair of original Voigt corner horns a while back. Amazing sound, given the early units & cabinet design etc.
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Old 20th February 2007, 02:54 PM   #26
pjanda1 is offline pjanda1  United States
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No insult taken, Scottmoose. I prefer to sit in the balcony or an orchestra hall. In Chicago's Orchestra Hall one ends up looking past their knees to see the ensemble. Though I spend more time listening to anything but orchestral music, I rarely hear rock or blues live. Seems every show I go to is not only far too loud (I'm 27, and my ears are done dealin' after 16K), but they've pushed the P.A. far beyond its limits (is that what 100% THD sounds like?). Even my Etyomtic Research ear plugs take the fun out of it.

I had indeed forgotten they (with exceptions like mine) could all be taken to 138". I also didn't know if you were thinking of GM's Lowther dims, as another post of yours (in a different thread) had caused me to question.

In any case, we best get back on topic.

pj
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Old 20th February 2007, 03:03 PM   #27
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I know that feeling. I'm 28 & lucky enough to still be able to hear up to 21KHz, but at the rate I'm going that's not going to last much longer... Far too many amplified concerts seem to be going for record dbs these days, without there really seeming to be a reason for it. In my hall of infamy is a Counting Crows session I attended, which was so loud I had to walk out -it was physically painful, and that was with earplugs. I tend to go to smaller venues now, rocker though I was, and remain, where the limits seem to be better understood.
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Old 20th February 2007, 03:12 PM   #28
pjanda1 is offline pjanda1  United States
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It aggrivates me to no end. I'd like to go to shows. When you put ear plugs in, you truely realize how the PA has exceeded it's limits. I didn't loose any hearing at rock shows though. Orchestral brass sections are really, really loud. (A youth of old farm equipment and shotguns didn't help either.) But, folks that claim you need an enormous dynamic range to reproduce what the audience hears at an orchestral concert are full of it, IMHO. Though I've yet pull out a meter at a concert, it just isn't very loud in most of the hall. One does, however, need a system with a nonexistent noise floor. Damn my stupid disc transport.

last o.t. post, I swear.

pj
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Old 20th February 2007, 03:19 PM   #29
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Don't get me started on what's happened to orchestras of late. Far too many have gone for volume of sound to fill big halls. The racket they put out is apalling. I couldn't agree more about the brass -I almost always find it painful to listen to now.

I never answered your question from a couple of posts back, so:
the BIB I was talking about was GM's -I've done a few Lowther versions of my own, but I can't remember their exact dims.(I've done so many BIBs I've lost track). Line length will have been the same as GMs or very close as that's dictated by the driver Fs. If fallible memory serves, Greg prefered a larger cabinet for his Lowther suggestions with a little series resistance (high resistance wire should sort that), as seen on the Zilla pages, while I tended to go with a smaller cabinet volume with no additional resistance. Simulated 1/2 space response for the two boxes are similar. Greg's are probably (almost certainly) the better speakers -the smaller size I use comes from trying to minimise the footprint so more people can get away with a pair. Then again, if you're able to justify 70in tall enclosures to the SO, a 1/3 larger footprint probably won't be much of a problem, especially as they're designed to be shoved into corners.
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Old 20th February 2007, 03:22 PM   #30
pjanda1 is offline pjanda1  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scottmoose
Don't get me started on what's happened to orchestras of late. Far too many have gone for volume of sound to fill big halls. The racket they put out is apalling. I couldn't agree more about the brass -I almost always find it painful to listen to now.
Sounds like my friends and I are starting to wear away the Brit's sensibilities too.


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