BIB, Metronome, Frugelhorn comparison - diyAudio
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Old 1st February 2007, 07:05 PM   #1
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Default BIB, Metronome, Frugelhorn comparison

I just finished Planet10's iBIBk 126x for my FE127's. I also have Metronome's and Frugelhorns where I use FE108EZ's. All are quite good and for me none need BSC.

The iBIBk is the bass champ, but it is the also fairly large for a cab using such a small driver. It's also a very easy build with only 90deg angles, and is the least placement dependant. The rear K slot does seem to reduce the large response ripple by turning it into a few less objectionable ripples in the 100-200hz range. I haven't played with damping yet, and I believe I can smoothen that up nicely. It's the only one of the 3 that my musical tastes can live without a sub, given a choice.

The Metronome is the trickiest for tuning and placement. It can go from quite boomy near the wall with no interior damping, to lacking in bass with too much damping. A little experimentation with polyfill and absorbant behind the driver is all it takes to get the sound you want.

The smoothest, as Dave speculated, is the Frugelhorn, and if you have good corners and/or build the deflectors, it has enough extension for most. It also can be cranked to much higher volumes, due to the better cone control being a horn, as long as you don't have too much deep bass content.
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Old 1st February 2007, 07:31 PM   #2
Kensai is offline Kensai  United States
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Thanks John. That's very interesting. Do you think that the Frugels built for 127s would be good enough for you without subs?

Kensai
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Old 1st February 2007, 08:05 PM   #3
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I didn't try my 127's in my Frugels. They won't fit due to my flush mount for the 108's. I'm not sure a 127 belongs in a horn though.

Regarding your question I'm not the right one to ask. My computer is my source and I have computer based active XO, so it would probably take a Kleinhorn sized horn for me to go without a sub. Plus my opinion is that full rangers sound better when relieved of bass duties, but a sub is a very simple matter to integrate for me since I have total flexibility, even in the time domain. That makes me kind of an oddball full range user who's not giving a his sub.
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Old 1st February 2007, 09:55 PM   #4
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John, it looks like you've had time to play with a more than a few driver & (non) enclosure types lately. Have you had any personal experience with the Fostex FF125K?

Not being adept at the math / modelling thing myself, I've looked at the basic published specs and deduced that it might be an interesting candidate in the i-BIBK for 2 channel HT system, particularly with a tube amp with a bit of a soft top end. With a class A (or digital) SS amp, it would appear that tweeters would be redundant .
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Old 1st February 2007, 11:51 PM   #5
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ChrisB,

No I haven't, but if I run accross an incredible deal on a pair like with all my drivers the past year, I'd be more than happy give them a twirl, just not directly on axis unless I'm allowed to use my EQ.

How about the little Jordan with the 3" square frame http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/drivers/jxr6.html in a tiny BIB with more power or for more sensitivity go with 4 per side or a real array of 16-32 per side depending upon budget.

Let's consult the experts. What happens with multiple drivers in a BIB? Will it help smooth bass response?
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Old 2nd February 2007, 02:50 AM   #6
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I don't think anyone has built a line-BiB yet. Scottmoose told me that you simply multiply the mouth opening by the number of drivers and your Zdriver point is simply the mid-point of the line.

Some had been asking about doing a BiB for the HiVi B3S, and Scott gave a line of 67", zdriver of 13.5" and a mouth of 25"^2. Figured that since these were only 3"ers, had an Fs at least 30Hz above the Fostex 4"ers and a very low sensitivity (79dB, I think), that we'd need at least a line of 4 (still need some real power to fill a room with them). Would still be a tiny BiB, but then 4x per side brings the price up to about the same as an FF125K per side (or significantly more than any of the other 4.5" or smaller Fostex other than the 108). I think we'd run into some serious combing issues if we used anything larger than the B3S to make a line-BiB, unless we introduce a crossover, which kinda defeats the purpose in my mind (as well as jacks up the cost).

The Jordan, on the other hand, would be something of a monster (I have no idea what it costs, though, so I'd hate to contemplate it). A line of 4 would get you up to about 91dB, so if you did use your EQ (there, I give you permission , EQ is your friend), and shelfed down everything from the upper bass on up and applied some power, I could see it competing with Fostex 125/6/7 drivers on the bottom end while surpassing them on the top.

Maybe Scott will sim up a BiB for the Jordan, and you can build a nice, bigmouthed 16 line for them

Kensai
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Old 2nd February 2007, 03:58 AM   #7
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The "bigmouthed" part is where I lose interest. That's why I haven't done a BIB for my 206E's, although I've not totally convinced that mouth X # of drivers is optimum. Based on the results with my 127's, I may try the little BIB for the 108.

If I end up going with a front plate supra-baffle on my iBIBk instead of just adding something to the sides, then I'll try a multiple drivers in one to see what happens. My listening position is relatively far, so I think long arrays are needed before I have to worry about comb filtering.
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Old 2nd February 2007, 08:06 AM   #8
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It's not the mouth that needs increasing so much as Vb. Generally when increasing the number of drivers in a QWR you need to double the cabinet volume for every doubling of the driver numbers, but the BIB already has a fair bit of volume, so this isn't automatically applicable. All the terminus CSA & line length do are set the cut-off point and gain. Fudging the Zdriver point for multiple drive-units is to take the middle driver, or the mid-point between the two central drivers, rather than the centre of the line itself. To be honest though, I'm unconvinced about an array BIB. TQWT (which as far as I'm concerned are just a specific subset of horn with linear expansion) don't really lend themselves to this very well.
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Old 2nd February 2007, 08:58 AM   #9
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Thanx John -- very interesting. Nice to know that the k-slot seems to be working as intended. That could really open up some improvement for BIBs everywhere.

Brian Cherry played with large arrays of the baby Jordons and, reading between the lines, he decided it wasn't worthwhile going past 4 per side.

dave
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Old 2nd February 2007, 01:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by planet10
Thanx John -- very interesting. Nice to know that the k-slot seems to be working as intended. That could really open up some improvement for BIBs everywhere.

Brian Cherry played with large arrays of the baby Jordons and, reading between the lines, he decided it wasn't worthwhile going past 4 per side.

dave
Dave,

Keep in mind that all I did was some tone sweeps, so measurements are needed before anyone starts cutting. Also, last night I noted some resonant behavior at the lower end of male vocals, which I hope to tweak away with some damping in the line.

That makes sense with the little Jordans. 4 probably act like a speaker, and I would need to jump to at least 24/side to get proper array behavior. That would be great if I could buy them in the $5-10 range.
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