Hello Everyone,
I have recently become interested in the open baffle concept. I like the simplicity of it all and most if not all comments have been good. Many times over I have heard people say they have tried open baffle and will never go back to boxes.
Another comment I hear often has to do with open baffles not being good for rock music. One perticular fellow said he listens to the Cult and Audioslave and said they do not sound good on open baffle. Most of these people I have read from seem to listen to entirly different music then I do. I don't even recognize much of the bands or singers they mention.
I listen to a lot of metal and punk, anything with fast guitars:
Avenged Sevenfold, Metallica, DragonForce, Voodoo Glow Skulls, NOFX, The Vandals.
I don't listen at earsplitting levels either. I figured out the power on my 89dB speakers where I normally listen to them at was peaking at 1 watt, and that was with Metallica. Most of the other music like the punk was a little lower, like a 1/3 lower or more.
So my question is why are open baffles bad for rock music? Does it just sound more muffled? Is there a lack of bass for rock? Is the open baffle too dynamic and fast for rock music that it just makes it sound bad?
Well, anyways, I am going to play around with the open baffle concept when I get a house in the next few months anyways. My cheap play speakers are the Radio Shack 40-1271 and the 40-1024. Here is some links to some specs on them:
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Drivers/40-1271/40-1271.htm
http://support.radioshack.com/support_audio/doc14/14435.htm
I have recently become interested in the open baffle concept. I like the simplicity of it all and most if not all comments have been good. Many times over I have heard people say they have tried open baffle and will never go back to boxes.
Another comment I hear often has to do with open baffles not being good for rock music. One perticular fellow said he listens to the Cult and Audioslave and said they do not sound good on open baffle. Most of these people I have read from seem to listen to entirly different music then I do. I don't even recognize much of the bands or singers they mention.
I listen to a lot of metal and punk, anything with fast guitars:
Avenged Sevenfold, Metallica, DragonForce, Voodoo Glow Skulls, NOFX, The Vandals.
I don't listen at earsplitting levels either. I figured out the power on my 89dB speakers where I normally listen to them at was peaking at 1 watt, and that was with Metallica. Most of the other music like the punk was a little lower, like a 1/3 lower or more.
So my question is why are open baffles bad for rock music? Does it just sound more muffled? Is there a lack of bass for rock? Is the open baffle too dynamic and fast for rock music that it just makes it sound bad?
Well, anyways, I am going to play around with the open baffle concept when I get a house in the next few months anyways. My cheap play speakers are the Radio Shack 40-1271 and the 40-1024. Here is some links to some specs on them:
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Drivers/40-1271/40-1271.htm
http://support.radioshack.com/support_audio/doc14/14435.htm
cheap speaker is always cheap,doesn't matter if you used them in this or other way;
there are ways when cheap speakers sounds lots better than price can say,and OB concept is usual suspect for this;
other thing- good spk construction is good and pretty linear,so it is capable to recreate all sorts of music;
imagine OB as ,say, MK's : two 15" + Lowther (with or without tweet) ....all that per side;
do you think that combo can't move some air?
conclusion: do not fall easy under generalizations of any kind......just build and learn
there are ways when cheap speakers sounds lots better than price can say,and OB concept is usual suspect for this;
other thing- good spk construction is good and pretty linear,so it is capable to recreate all sorts of music;
imagine OB as ,say, MK's : two 15" + Lowther (with or without tweet) ....all that per side;
do you think that combo can't move some air?
conclusion: do not fall easy under generalizations of any kind......just build and learn
I played around with the 40-1271 in an OB and it worked ok. Large full range units tend to shout, so listen to them off axis.
The 40-1271 has an ultra high Q, but they could also work in an aperiodic enclosure. Perhaps something along these lines:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/redwine3/system.html
Another idea is a dipole:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17103
Perhaps the 40-1271 facing forward and the 40-1022 on the back.
You should be able to have some good cheap fun with these.
The 40-1271 has an ultra high Q, but they could also work in an aperiodic enclosure. Perhaps something along these lines:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/redwine3/system.html
Another idea is a dipole:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17103
Perhaps the 40-1271 facing forward and the 40-1022 on the back.
You should be able to have some good cheap fun with these.
The lack of bass attributed to OBs has two sources:
1. The objective lack of room gain, because dipoles don´t "pressurize" the room below the lowest room mode. You certainly can compensate for that by adding bass driver surface.
2. The objective absence of some boomy room resonances, which leads some listeners - who do not know otherwise - to the false assumption of lacking bass. In fact dipoles will deliver bass more true to the original than conventional boxes. But without the "help" of those boomy resonances you may have difficulty to get the amount of "one note punch" some rock afficionados mistake for bass quality.
1. The objective lack of room gain, because dipoles don´t "pressurize" the room below the lowest room mode. You certainly can compensate for that by adding bass driver surface.
2. The objective absence of some boomy room resonances, which leads some listeners - who do not know otherwise - to the false assumption of lacking bass. In fact dipoles will deliver bass more true to the original than conventional boxes. But without the "help" of those boomy resonances you may have difficulty to get the amount of "one note punch" some rock afficionados mistake for bass quality.
David
For rock IMO you want bass down to at least about 40-50 Hz.
The limit to bass extension & volume in an OB comes down to volume displaced (driver area * Xmax) and/ or baffle size.
There are two broad options
The small baffle route:
Linkwitz's OBs: use 8" drivers with IIRC 6.5 mm Xmax: as *mids either one in the newer Orion, down to 120 Hz; or two 8" in his Phoenix, down to IIRC 100 Hz. The smallish baffles require EQ.
Note the 400-1024s have Xmax of only 2.35 mm
The Orion for lower bass (ie < 120 Hz) uses a pair of 12.5 mm Xmax 10" drivers, the Phoenix uses a pair of 12.5 mm Xmax 12" drivers. Both again use EQ, and are flat or close to it, down I believe to about 30-40 Hz.
A good example of the other OB bass option:
large baffles and/ or more driver volume displaced, no EQ, flat to the bottom of the rock register:
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project07/Project07.html
Cheers
For rock IMO you want bass down to at least about 40-50 Hz.
The limit to bass extension & volume in an OB comes down to volume displaced (driver area * Xmax) and/ or baffle size.
There are two broad options
The small baffle route:
Linkwitz's OBs: use 8" drivers with IIRC 6.5 mm Xmax: as *mids either one in the newer Orion, down to 120 Hz; or two 8" in his Phoenix, down to IIRC 100 Hz. The smallish baffles require EQ.
Note the 400-1024s have Xmax of only 2.35 mm
The Orion for lower bass (ie < 120 Hz) uses a pair of 12.5 mm Xmax 10" drivers, the Phoenix uses a pair of 12.5 mm Xmax 12" drivers. Both again use EQ, and are flat or close to it, down I believe to about 30-40 Hz.
A good example of the other OB bass option:
large baffles and/ or more driver volume displaced, no EQ, flat to the bottom of the rock register:
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project07/Project07.html
Cheers
OBs are good to great for any kind of music. Simply changing music genre doesn't magically do anything to how a speaker performs. Most comments about OBs not being for rock is due to the lack of colored, thumpy or muddy bass that you get with most retail box speakers. People get attached to speakers they've spent good money on, and grow to believe the sound of whatever they've brought into their homes is THE sound for whatever their favorite music is.
You've heard the word "psychoacoustic"? It can be used for lots of things
Anyway, I use a pair of 8" Pioneer B20s on 16"x20" baffles in my office with an Emu 0404 soundcard as source. I can use the Emu to EQ reasonable, clean bass to a touch under 50Hz (also able to EQ back in the top end that the B20s are missing when raw). Not perfect, but given the situation (4 year old son's bedroom is next door), it works out. Not to mention if you crank them, they sound good pretty much throughout the top two floors of the house
So, if you want decent bass from yours, you can go for larger baffles, driver position closer to the floor, baffle position closer to a side wall (right up against would be fine as it would more reasonably become an extension of that side's wing) or some form of EQ.
One idea I have is to make a line array using your full range and then several woofers crossed down low enough to avoid combing (a function of the physical length of a wave at any given frequency). A simple version I might make would be a 4' line using my B20s and 4 Dayton SD-215s (8" DVC woofers with and Fs of 29Hz) per side. Since the Daytons measure fairly benignly up to above 1kHz, I might even start off cheaply without using any XO at all on them. Just parallel all 8 voice coils off the - terminal of the B20s and letting the inductance of the B20s coil lowpass against an effective impedance of 1Ohm while giving me an effictive nominal load of 9Ohms. Of course, this will likely require EQ as well to sound any good and to bring the bass output into line. Mainly I'm guessing that there'll be a huge hump in the upper bass and lower mids due to 5 8"ers all hitting through there strongly, so its going to be more a question of notching that out instead of artifically boosting the bass. This kind of EQ is also more amp friendly.
Kensai
You've heard the word "psychoacoustic"? It can be used for lots of things
Anyway, I use a pair of 8" Pioneer B20s on 16"x20" baffles in my office with an Emu 0404 soundcard as source. I can use the Emu to EQ reasonable, clean bass to a touch under 50Hz (also able to EQ back in the top end that the B20s are missing when raw). Not perfect, but given the situation (4 year old son's bedroom is next door), it works out. Not to mention if you crank them, they sound good pretty much throughout the top two floors of the house
So, if you want decent bass from yours, you can go for larger baffles, driver position closer to the floor, baffle position closer to a side wall (right up against would be fine as it would more reasonably become an extension of that side's wing) or some form of EQ.
One idea I have is to make a line array using your full range and then several woofers crossed down low enough to avoid combing (a function of the physical length of a wave at any given frequency). A simple version I might make would be a 4' line using my B20s and 4 Dayton SD-215s (8" DVC woofers with and Fs of 29Hz) per side. Since the Daytons measure fairly benignly up to above 1kHz, I might even start off cheaply without using any XO at all on them. Just parallel all 8 voice coils off the - terminal of the B20s and letting the inductance of the B20s coil lowpass against an effective impedance of 1Ohm while giving me an effictive nominal load of 9Ohms. Of course, this will likely require EQ as well to sound any good and to bring the bass output into line. Mainly I'm guessing that there'll be a huge hump in the upper bass and lower mids due to 5 8"ers all hitting through there strongly, so its going to be more a question of notching that out instead of artifically boosting the bass. This kind of EQ is also more amp friendly.
Kensai
Thank you all for your kind replys.
One thing I have learned through all of this reading on the forums is that sound is different to each individual person. Some people say ob's work for rock, and others say they don't. I will have to play with them myself to come up with my own conclusions.
Bass is a funny thing. I like clean, tight bass. I remember when I was in hi school that a kid had a 15" cheap WallMart sub in the back of his car. It was horrible distorted and so was the rest of the speakers. I asked him how he could listen to that crap because it always had a lot of distortion. He said "What are you talking about, it sounds awesome!". To each their own.
One thing I have learned through all of this reading on the forums is that sound is different to each individual person. Some people say ob's work for rock, and others say they don't. I will have to play with them myself to come up with my own conclusions.
Bass is a funny thing. I like clean, tight bass. I remember when I was in hi school that a kid had a 15" cheap WallMart sub in the back of his car. It was horrible distorted and so was the rest of the speakers. I asked him how he could listen to that crap because it always had a lot of distortion. He said "What are you talking about, it sounds awesome!". To each their own.
Lin,
That's certainly been on my mind. Should help warm up the bass with a bit hump around the baffle's rolloff point. The only concern I have is that I don't know what the inductance of the B20s coil is, so the difference between 2ohms with only 1 coil driven each and 1ohm of 2 coils driven each is an octave at crossover. If I were to try it out, I'd definitely try both ways.
Also with only 1 coil driven, sensitivity will be down which may actually help keep the midrange output down. If it were to sound better but the xo freq turned out too high, I'd probably drop in an inductor in line after the B20. Remember that the Re of the B20's coil and of any added inductor will also raise the Qts of the Daytons and lower sensitivity.
Just one of the reasons the line array concept appeals to me . . . even more ways to experiment
Kensai
That's certainly been on my mind. Should help warm up the bass with a bit hump around the baffle's rolloff point. The only concern I have is that I don't know what the inductance of the B20s coil is, so the difference between 2ohms with only 1 coil driven each and 1ohm of 2 coils driven each is an octave at crossover. If I were to try it out, I'd definitely try both ways.
Also with only 1 coil driven, sensitivity will be down which may actually help keep the midrange output down. If it were to sound better but the xo freq turned out too high, I'd probably drop in an inductor in line after the B20. Remember that the Re of the B20's coil and of any added inductor will also raise the Qts of the Daytons and lower sensitivity.
Just one of the reasons the line array concept appeals to me . . . even more ways to experiment
Kensai
My OB's rock..
B200-Vifa M26wr0908-Cantus g2 ribbons.
300B in PPP for the B200's, Se-el-84 on the ribbons, & BASH plates on the Vifa's. The clean & tight bass is addicting for good rock music. the bass lines can get as complex as anything & all much, much easier to hear. much.......the bass will still rattle everything in the house, but no boom..& much easier to intigrate with a fullranger..I just run the plates of the DAC signal instead of TVC & then can basically EQ then & there..Kind of a pain, but works well.
B200-Vifa M26wr0908-Cantus g2 ribbons.
300B in PPP for the B200's, Se-el-84 on the ribbons, & BASH plates on the Vifa's. The clean & tight bass is addicting for good rock music. the bass lines can get as complex as anything & all much, much easier to hear. much.......the bass will still rattle everything in the house, but no boom..& much easier to intigrate with a fullranger..I just run the plates of the DAC signal instead of TVC & then can basically EQ then & there..Kind of a pain, but works well.
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