An 8 inch driver is going to beam at you at a lower frequency than a smaller diameter driver, just the way of it, without getting into the wave dynamics of it all. ...If you toe in the speakers to intersect ~3 feet in front of you, assuming you are listening in the nearfield, should ameliorate the rising response issue; play around with speaker position adjusting this obtuse angle of intersection, relative to where you intend your brain to be positioned.
"Given half a chance, the brain will blame everything on the opposable thumb." --Tom Robbins
Time and hard mileage does good things to this driver, and I would say Dave D's plugs are pretty much au necessaire, to really get the full effect, to optimize. I put my original new pair of B200's onto open baffles, which I might add, really gives them their intended life, then played a Hammond organ into them, through a 250 watt Hafler amplifier, while drinking heavily with some friends, armed with guitars and drums. These drivers are NOT shrinking violets, and could very easily be replacement foghorns for the Coast Guard. They easily communicated the magic gestalt of the live Hammond organ, and I knew we had a winner. They really stomp, and are indestructible, for all intents. After this prolonged abuse, they were very noticeably changed, refined, more brain-friendly units. Getting them outta the sealed box will do wonders, and ANY driver sounds better on an open baffle, simple due to the fact that there are now static air masses on each side of the diaphragm.
When I put the back seat down in my car, the Delco 6X9's I pinched from the junkyard sound Fabulous, with the local classical station, and I mean really, REALLY good; such is the difference.
"Given half a chance, the brain will blame everything on the opposable thumb." --Tom Robbins
Time and hard mileage does good things to this driver, and I would say Dave D's plugs are pretty much au necessaire, to really get the full effect, to optimize. I put my original new pair of B200's onto open baffles, which I might add, really gives them their intended life, then played a Hammond organ into them, through a 250 watt Hafler amplifier, while drinking heavily with some friends, armed with guitars and drums. These drivers are NOT shrinking violets, and could very easily be replacement foghorns for the Coast Guard. They easily communicated the magic gestalt of the live Hammond organ, and I knew we had a winner. They really stomp, and are indestructible, for all intents. After this prolonged abuse, they were very noticeably changed, refined, more brain-friendly units. Getting them outta the sealed box will do wonders, and ANY driver sounds better on an open baffle, simple due to the fact that there are now static air masses on each side of the diaphragm.
When I put the back seat down in my car, the Delco 6X9's I pinched from the junkyard sound Fabulous, with the local classical station, and I mean really, REALLY good; such is the difference.
PeterI generally confine myself to drugs that actually enhance that part of the audible spectrum. Just that alcohol and bad playing go together sooooo well, the world over! Either way, the B200 are stylish Blasters, let there be no doubt. Emersonian jazz/rock riffs sounded spectacular with the drivers. We knew they had "it."
I knew what sonic Planet10 had been commenting on, and now we need more phase plugs, enough for all the B200's in use, particularly on open baffle. It sounds like Corloc has perfected the correction circuit for those without ability to contour. See the DarkStar circle for that stuff.
Dan,
I know the feeling, I played bass in a band 20 years ago and when a certain amount of spirituosa consumed, it it was hilarious.
However it's a narrow border. When we recorded, one could hear when the border control was passed. Jesus, 20 years
Why did I sell my Gibson Les Paul JR-59 and Fender Twin reverb, sob,snort. Well, still have my Ovation Axe bass under my bed!
Cheers/Peter
I know the feeling, I played bass in a band 20 years ago and when a certain amount of spirituosa consumed, it it was hilarious.
However it's a narrow border. When we recorded, one could hear when the border control was passed. Jesus, 20 years
Why did I sell my Gibson Les Paul JR-59 and Fender Twin reverb, sob,snort. Well, still have my Ovation Axe bass under my bed!
Cheers/Peter
Peter
The last thing we wanted into that night was an historical document of the event. However, where the chops are at hand, the ELP stuff is actually pretty easy. Tarkus, with a garage-load of hangers on, enuff spirituosa, and the stars come out to play. Historical fact was that the B200 were amazing, amazing, non-Leslie organ speakers, and this was just the beginning. It was all about burn-in, time in light years, in this case, and after that lot, they really were very mellow and easy, properly contoured of course. I have always used the wonderous Rane RPM, all speakers, and all rooms need contouring. www.rane.com
The last thing we wanted into that night was an historical document of the event. However, where the chops are at hand, the ELP stuff is actually pretty easy. Tarkus, with a garage-load of hangers on, enuff spirituosa, and the stars come out to play. Historical fact was that the B200 were amazing, amazing, non-Leslie organ speakers, and this was just the beginning. It was all about burn-in, time in light years, in this case, and after that lot, they really were very mellow and easy, properly contoured of course. I have always used the wonderous Rane RPM, all speakers, and all rooms need contouring. www.rane.com
I passed up a mellotron a while back. I've always wanted one, and this one was pretty much being given away (£70) but it was in rotten shape, and I don't have either the room, or the talent to go rooting around in it's innards, so I had to let it go. 
Regretted it ever since of course, if only for the potential of scaring the neigbours with some suitably creepy King Crimson-esque sounds in the early hours. 
Regretted it ever since of course, if only for the potential of scaring the neigbours with some suitably creepy King Crimson-esque sounds in the early hours. 
dmason said:
It sounds like Corloc has perfected the correction circuit for those without ability to contour. See the DarkStar circle for that stuff.
I don't think I would go that far. The circuit come from deep inside the Dark Star thread. I tried it when it was first suggested. It's works for now, but I'm interested to try skorpions suggested circuit. Also Planet10 suggested a PPL? circuit. That I need slog though.
skorpion said:
The B200's are wonderful drivers. I'm just in the middle of designing new baffles for a 12' x 12' room with a 8' x' 10 dormer.
One of Visaton's own designs include an OB with the B200 paired with an 18" driver known as BGS40, this bass driver has a cone mass of 80grams which is very low. The designs pretty much straightens out the frequency response by adding a lot to the lower frequencies....
I've listened to this design and didn't get bothered by 'shouting' sounds, it sounded rather 'warm' and very detailed and low distortion.....
Here's the datasheet of the design:
http://www.visaton.de/downloads/NoBoxBB.pdf
I've listened to this design and didn't get bothered by 'shouting' sounds, it sounded rather 'warm' and very detailed and low distortion.....
Here's the datasheet of the design:
http://www.visaton.de/downloads/NoBoxBB.pdf
I havn't heard the Nobox but as you can see the B200 is fed via a LR-filter of 1.5 mH + 10 ohms, see link: http://www.visaton.de/bilder/weichen/gross/noboxbb_w.gif .
Visaton has this kind of correction in all their published speaker plans for the B200 but with quite different value-combinations in their various designs. I was not very original in proposing such a circuit. With the help of the EDGE simulation program ( http://www.tolvan.com/ ) I tried to seek the best compromise.
/Erling
Visaton has this kind of correction in all their published speaker plans for the B200 but with quite different value-combinations in their various designs. I was not very original in proposing such a circuit. With the help of the EDGE simulation program ( http://www.tolvan.com/ ) I tried to seek the best compromise.
/Erling
-> skorpion
What do you think about Visaton B200 high tones when notch filter (L=1mH R=6.8Ohm) is used?
Personally, I found this configuration (in OB) lacking highs, especially cymbals sound like "psss", but rest of the band is really OK.
I've added 2,2uF parallel to notch filter to fix this problem (with highs).
But with cap, whole band moved little higher so I loosed mass of the sound (bass).
What do you think about Visaton B200 high tones when notch filter (L=1mH R=6.8Ohm) is used?
Personally, I found this configuration (in OB) lacking highs, especially cymbals sound like "psss", but rest of the band is really OK.
I've added 2,2uF parallel to notch filter to fix this problem (with highs).
But with cap, whole band moved little higher so I loosed mass of the sound (bass).
I had a little success with such a filter in combination with a Zobel (see http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=31582.90 ), but really you have to compromise. Myself I now play with 1 mH + 6.8 ohms like you, but I have put four layers of felt (the type you put under tabelcloth) over the back of my B200s to dampen the treble backwave. The back of my dipoles are firing into a brick-wall. To me this arrangement gives better soundbalance and better stereo-definition. There are more things you can experiment with than just filters. 
/Erling
/Erling
JandG,
I owe you an apology. My comment about TOOL was misplaced. I listened to some of my son's rock cds. And I mistakenly based my comment on some record by The Knife. Being able later do the appropiate comparison I would say that although TOOL play on electronic instruments their sound could very well be used for speaker evaluation.
/Erling
I owe you an apology. My comment about TOOL was misplaced. I listened to some of my son's rock cds. And I mistakenly based my comment on some record by The Knife. Being able later do the appropiate comparison I would say that although TOOL play on electronic instruments their sound could very well be used for speaker evaluation.
/Erling
Thanks..
Yeh I listen to alot of differant stuff, & alot of older JAZZ, the "TOOL" stuff, especially there new one 10,000 days, has massive layering in the music, very complex drumming in the layers for eval.. hard to catch properly if one's system is not up to it, mine is often not up it, all depend on what I got going on. I Made a discovery yesterday that is rock solid IMO concerning the B200. I was listening to Creedence Clearwater Revival "Chonical" & all was good untill song 9/ " Fortunate Sone" came on,, then there was that ever so anouying treble beam on the guitars..I was seriously dissapointed.Tried all kinds of filters to get it out..none could..all the listed notches, everything,, also xo's over to a ribbon, all comprimised the B200, way to much..I got mad & put baffles in another system & brought my monitors out, fired iit up & there it was again, same song!!!!!!!!!!!!!!just not as bad, bad right a the edge.. so I really got mad for my stupidity & brought the B200's back out to main & fired it up.. played song 9 * low & behold trble beam was gone, played it 10 times or more, same conclusion,, what the heck!!!!!! then I glansded up & there was the problem..I had closed the 10' x 5' curtain behing the baffels, also in haste had placed them less than 2' from wall insted of my usual 4'.This has happended to me before I had just forgot.I am now for sure treating my entire back wall with something cheap ..It is a must IMO for treble beam smashing. I am now filter free again & couldn't be happier. again I tried all the posted filters. all had to much comprimise for me..The back wall reflection is NO GOOD for me, so I will look for a cheap material to cover that back wall that the curtains don't cover. If I ran high power I suppose the filters wouldn't bother me, but my biggest amp is 22watts, so effieciency is a biggie for me.& I like my real small 1.5w & under amps also for low listening in the extreme.
Yeh I listen to alot of differant stuff, & alot of older JAZZ, the "TOOL" stuff, especially there new one 10,000 days, has massive layering in the music, very complex drumming in the layers for eval.. hard to catch properly if one's system is not up to it, mine is often not up it, all depend on what I got going on. I Made a discovery yesterday that is rock solid IMO concerning the B200. I was listening to Creedence Clearwater Revival "Chonical" & all was good untill song 9/ " Fortunate Sone" came on,, then there was that ever so anouying treble beam on the guitars..I was seriously dissapointed.Tried all kinds of filters to get it out..none could..all the listed notches, everything,, also xo's over to a ribbon, all comprimised the B200, way to much..I got mad & put baffles in another system & brought my monitors out, fired iit up & there it was again, same song!!!!!!!!!!!!!!just not as bad, bad right a the edge.. so I really got mad for my stupidity & brought the B200's back out to main & fired it up.. played song 9 * low & behold trble beam was gone, played it 10 times or more, same conclusion,, what the heck!!!!!! then I glansded up & there was the problem..I had closed the 10' x 5' curtain behing the baffels, also in haste had placed them less than 2' from wall insted of my usual 4'.This has happended to me before I had just forgot.I am now for sure treating my entire back wall with something cheap ..It is a must IMO for treble beam smashing. I am now filter free again & couldn't be happier. again I tried all the posted filters. all had to much comprimise for me..The back wall reflection is NO GOOD for me, so I will look for a cheap material to cover that back wall that the curtains don't cover. If I ran high power I suppose the filters wouldn't bother me, but my biggest amp is 22watts, so effieciency is a biggie for me.& I like my real small 1.5w & under amps also for low listening in the extreme.
Yes, 10000 days is the one I have listened to. It comes over beautiful with my 1 mH + 6.8 ohm LR-filter. But as you can see above I have choosen to damp backward treble with some felt for better balance. Rooms are rooms and you have to live with them. I play at the moment with a Trends Audio T-amp and get quite satisfying levels. But I find these Trends TA-10s revealing also at low levels. You won't get any 10 watts out of them with B200s. And yes, speakers are about 1 yard from any wall.
/Erling
/Erling
I must say I haven't tried the 6.8ohm
I didn't have a quality 6.8, ..suppose I could series some up, to get it,,The only Mills I have are 2.5 & 12.5ohms..I do have a bunch of sand cast....don't like em, but would give me a Idea. The 12.5 & 1mh did do a nice job,, but did rob alot of power for me. I tried it @ 12.5 & 1mh coil & a crappy 1mh at that.. I have some nice foil type coming in differant values. I would like to try correction @ passive line level..I just don't really know how to calculate that quite yet. I have Tube Cad downloaded for Pllxo & most other tube & op-amp based xo's but it does'nt have notch filters or anything like that. which would be cool to play with. I am still fighting with myself on getting a digital unit, because of the op-amps, op-amps & me don't get along.. But would like to start playing with Passive line level.tried some parallel notches with it, but didn't hit the mark, I didn't have correct coils..I think I will study the cicuit Paul Joppa put out. ..& get a qulity 1mh & 6.8, for kicks..I am allways game to try differant things..Bought a Ashly 4001 active & sold it FAST...to damn noisy for me....op-amps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!yuck.
I didn't have a quality 6.8, ..suppose I could series some up, to get it,,The only Mills I have are 2.5 & 12.5ohms..I do have a bunch of sand cast....don't like em, but would give me a Idea. The 12.5 & 1mh did do a nice job,, but did rob alot of power for me. I tried it @ 12.5 & 1mh coil & a crappy 1mh at that.. I have some nice foil type coming in differant values. I would like to try correction @ passive line level..I just don't really know how to calculate that quite yet. I have Tube Cad downloaded for Pllxo & most other tube & op-amp based xo's but it does'nt have notch filters or anything like that. which would be cool to play with. I am still fighting with myself on getting a digital unit, because of the op-amps, op-amps & me don't get along.. But would like to start playing with Passive line level.tried some parallel notches with it, but didn't hit the mark, I didn't have correct coils..I think I will study the cicuit Paul Joppa put out. ..& get a qulity 1mh & 6.8, for kicks..I am allways game to try differant things..Bought a Ashly 4001 active & sold it FAST...to damn noisy for me....op-amps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!yuck.
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