GeeK....
Can you tell more of that amp...? it has me very curiouse. great thread byt he way.. MJK..You are the only one I EVER have heard of running Lowthers w/ those types of amps,, you are a REBEL!!!!!!!!!!very cool. Also funny how those earlly 70's SS amps actually sound good. I have a few & the phono sections in them ccan be quite good for sure. I had a mental flash yesterday that made me chuckle..In 4 years I have went from Yamaha MX2000, then to small pure class A's Threshold/Forte & the sorte, to PP tube amps, which all I still have 18 to 22 watters, to 3 watts, & wanting to go smaller even yet. The dynamics of the SEP Siemens is better than my 300B in PP, go figure..As far as what I run the signal after the SEP mono's is NOTHING, direct to B200's with no filters, no nothing. The 300B in PP is there for rotation, or in tri-amp ready mode, as the Open baffle's have G2 ribbons & Vifa m26wr0908 for bass duty when wanted. I am not running the ribbons at this time. The blue boxes next to mono's SEP's are BASH plates I run for the Bass augmentation when wanted..I have a 6sl7/6sn7 amp coming that is a wopping to 2 watts maybe..? should be fun..it is a homebrew & will need work, better caps & such,.but builder seems like he knows his stuff. So I can learn from it for what I payed which is cheap. Geek....I am REALLY curiouse about that little SET amp...???????? I will check your sites..
Can you tell more of that amp...? it has me very curiouse. great thread byt he way.. MJK..You are the only one I EVER have heard of running Lowthers w/ those types of amps,, you are a REBEL!!!!!!!!!!very cool. Also funny how those earlly 70's SS amps actually sound good. I have a few & the phono sections in them ccan be quite good for sure. I had a mental flash yesterday that made me chuckle..In 4 years I have went from Yamaha MX2000, then to small pure class A's Threshold/Forte & the sorte, to PP tube amps, which all I still have 18 to 22 watters, to 3 watts, & wanting to go smaller even yet. The dynamics of the SEP Siemens is better than my 300B in PP, go figure..As far as what I run the signal after the SEP mono's is NOTHING, direct to B200's with no filters, no nothing. The 300B in PP is there for rotation, or in tri-amp ready mode, as the Open baffle's have G2 ribbons & Vifa m26wr0908 for bass duty when wanted. I am not running the ribbons at this time. The blue boxes next to mono's SEP's are BASH plates I run for the Bass augmentation when wanted..I have a 6sl7/6sn7 amp coming that is a wopping to 2 watts maybe..? should be fun..it is a homebrew & will need work, better caps & such,.but builder seems like he knows his stuff. So I can learn from it for what I payed which is cheap. Geek....I am REALLY curiouse about that little SET amp...???????? I will check your sites..
There are more people then you would think running full range drivers with high powered solid state amps. Obviously, the politically correct type of amplification for a full range driver, and in particular Lowthers, is tube but if you design the speakers for solid state there are a few benefits. I believe great results can be obtained with either type of amp if the speaker design is compatible. I have surprised a few really dedicated tube amp users when they have heard my solid state powered system.
The other observation I would offer is that all of the chip amps and battery powered tripath amps are probably close to solid state then tube when it comes to interacting with a speaker. I tried a TEAC tripath amp for a while and it required exactly the same design for the speakers as the solid state amp I was using before and the Rotels I have gone to since then.
MJK said:
Martin, so the Lowther/ML TL set up is basically a ported box with x-amount of stuffing with a correction circuit?
I should try that, I bet I've enough odds and ends pieces of 3/4" plywood in the basement to make a pair.
Now about that correction circuit, I've not made anything like that before, could a novice pull it off? Also would this circuit be different if one was using a tube amp vs a SS unit?
Rick
Yes, that is the simplest description. The circuit is the key and this works realy well with SS power.
It is easy to construct, even I can do it. The design would be a little different for a tube amp. If you look on the similar vitual Fostex project you will find a correction circuit schematic covering a wide range of options for tube and SS amps.
Most full range drivers require more wattage than a typical SET amp in order to produce realistic SPL. Especially the 3" to 4" drivers that are popular because their small cone size produces clearer high frequencies than a whizzered 8" driver, and because their low magnet strength means they can be placed in easy-to-build vented enclosures.
A truly efficient full range driver has a powerful magnet, and will therefore have low Q factor, needing serious horn loading or frequency compensation to have reasonably accurate frequency response.
I don't think I'm writing anything controversial or complicated. Yet there still exists the bizarre equating of full-range drivers with low-wattage SET amplification.
A truly efficient full range driver has a powerful magnet, and will therefore have low Q factor, needing serious horn loading or frequency compensation to have reasonably accurate frequency response.
I don't think I'm writing anything controversial or complicated. Yet there still exists the bizarre equating of full-range drivers with low-wattage SET amplification.
It's equated that way because 95% of the people using fullrange drivers are using tube amps.
A lot of fullrange drivers are very efficient. If you choose to use an amp with low power out put then you'll need to use efficient speakers. I see nothing bizarre about that.
What's bizarre is believing that wattage matters much. There's no reason to own a 1000 watt amp unless your trying to fill a stadium or something. For home use it's crazy.
Personally I have no use for loudness for loudness' sake. I'm interested in a system that's pleasant to listen to for hours on end.
I don't like to use most of the zany descriptive terms thrown around in the world of music reproduction. If it sounds good now, and sounds good an hour from now, and you don't feel as if something is missing, then you have a good system, power be damned.
Rick
Dumbass said:
Thanks, Martin for jumping in, but I'd like to add my own thoughts:
Gee, I guess that depends not only on what you consider "truly" efficient, but on your room / system synergy/ and not least expectations. If you want to accelerate destruction of your hearing with "concert realistic" 100+dB SPL average levels, then yes, most flea-power SETS will hit the wall.
I'd argue that you've missed something in your understanding of what the "SET-heads" have found, and are indeed writing something "controversial" Perhaps you've not heard a well matched SET/FR horn based system. That's fine - I hadn't myself until only a few years ago.
But it would certainly be a mistake to dismiss what can only be described as synergy in "the bizarre equating of full-range drivers with low-wattage SET amplification" .
When things are cooking just right, the speed and dynamics of such a combination can be very emotionally satisfying at average SPLs well below the threshold of pain. Indeed in many cases, if you start calculating some backwards math, over 90% of the time the system is operating at well under 1 watt to the speaker terminals. And to paraphrase what's been said before -"the hi-fi is what's happening 40db DOWN" - so the amp's performance from the milliwatt level on up is at least as significant as the maximum limit.
This is of course exactly the area where a lot of high powered SS or even tubed amps fall flat on their face.
I got a chance to listen to a pair of Fostex FE206ESR in the factory recommended BLH a few nights ago. Whether you consider the manufacturer's rated sensitivity accurate or not, even with a few dB of 98dB, that's pretty serious SPL, and these kicked some serious as-s with no more than 3.5 wpc of SET.
The more powerful of the two amps used that evening was a pair of Bottlehead Paramour 2A3 (3.5w), although arguably even more musically intimate, harmonically and texturally realistic, was the Welborne Labs DRD45 - approximately half the 2A3's watts, but missing none of the authority
p.s.
judging from the replies since I started typing the above, you have pushed the "controversy" button - no worries, provided it doesn't devolve into a name calling flame war, that's what these forums are for.
Maybe, hard to say. My experience with SET amps is very limited.
So I have to fall back on the two true SET believers who have visited me over the past couple of years. The first was a big SET believer and had AER Lamhorns in his system as well as some Lowthers and a pair of Supravox drivers in TQWT enclosures. I never heard his system so I cannot offer any comparitive comments. He listened to his music, and mine, for an entire afternoon and well into the evening before driving back to NJ. His initial comment and I quote "I'm shocked!". At the end of the day I asked for positive and negative comments. The positives were strong and in my opinion the negatives were nits, nothing is perfect. The second guy was a little more subdued and he offered some positive feedback, he later posted impressions to a forum and was much stronger in his positive comments.
So while I may not have heard the ultimate in SET/high efficiency drivers I do believe I have done a decent job with the SS amps. Again nothing is perfect. I do believe very good results can be achieved either way, I also believe it is easier with a decent SS amp. As evidence of this last comment I can only point to the AA forums where if you read a few weeks worth of posts will see a large number of SET believers constantly tweaking and swapping amps, tubes, and cables trying to find the magic combination. The SET search can go on for years.
Couldn't the same be said for any part of this hobby, though? Some people get big into tweaks, others are content to have everything set up well the first time and be done with it.
I think you can get obsessive no matter if you have big black boxes or amps that glow in your system
Solid state is definitely more forgiving of poor speaker selection...not sure if that's what you meant by that.
I have never said that a SET amp could not produce a great performing system. But I do find it interesting that the true SET believer will continue to argue that the SS amp is not capable of a similar level of performance, I believe the differences are small and a matter of personal taste. If the speaker design is really good and factors in the type of amp being used then the system will also be very good. I also do not believe that a speaker that sounds good driven by a SET amp will necessarily sound good driven by a SS amp, the reverse also holds, which is where I think people make a mistake and form very biased opinions. A poorly designed or sounding speaker is just that, nothing makes up for that fact.
Plus, the additional grunt SS amps (usually) provide frees you up to try different things, like MLTLs, which need a BSC circuit, which, more often than not, reduces the driver's efficiency to the point where SET amps will struggle.
I love some of the SET amps I've heard. Into a good horn, they're probably unbeatable (some SS amps are getting very close indeed though now, so it's likely down to taste), but they certainly restrict your choice of drive-unit / cabinet, unless you're running 211s of course. And even then, in some cases, they'd struggle. Back to the old system matching again -you've got to take the lot into account, or you're shooting yourself in the foot. I would not want to wire a Marantz integrated to my friend Steve's EX4s in 140in tractrix horns. Just as I really don't fancy trying 2A3s into an FE108ESigma in an MLTL. I'm preaching to the choir here though, so I'll shut up, though not before wishing you all a very happy Chrismas!
Best
Scott
I love some of the SET amps I've heard. Into a good horn, they're probably unbeatable (some SS amps are getting very close indeed though now, so it's likely down to taste), but they certainly restrict your choice of drive-unit / cabinet, unless you're running 211s of course. And even then, in some cases, they'd struggle. Back to the old system matching again -you've got to take the lot into account, or you're shooting yourself in the foot. I would not want to wire a Marantz integrated to my friend Steve's EX4s in 140in tractrix horns. Just as I really don't fancy trying 2A3s into an FE108ESigma in an MLTL. I'm preaching to the choir here though, so I'll shut up, though not before wishing you all a very happy Chrismas!
Best
Scott
I don't believe there is a real controversy. I have stated I think either amp option can do an excellent job and then stated my preference for SS, no big deal. I think the "hot button" lies with the SET believers and their conviction that it is the only way, the rattling of the temple of the purists by an outsider.
Martin, I could be off base but it has always seemed to me that it was SS guys who fell off into the deep end as far as tweaking goes. But the truth of the matter may simply be that both camps have their fanatics.
For me I've stuck with the tubes because I find myself willing to listen to my system longer at a sitting than with other means of amplification.
On another tangent but still dealing with listening fatigue or the lack there of, the reason I'm wanting to try different things for my DX-3's is because, depending on what I'm listening to music wise, I'm more apt to listen longer to my other speakers than I am the Lowther's in their current state.
At present I own 4 sets of speakers, the Lowthers, a pair of bookshelf Klipsch, Infinity RS-7b's, and a 30 year old pair of Magnapans.
Recently during some upheaval due to new video equipment coming into the house I got on a jag of dragging out old equipment that I haven't listened to in years. While doing this I spent one afternoon listening to my various speakers. Of the ones mentioned earlier I found out that I was willing to listen to the Magnapans the longest. Yes their a little bass shy and yes they don't have that snap that a Lowther possesses but they are very easy on the ear. I can listen to my current set up all day long. SET-Tube CD-Maggies.
Martin I think some of the ideas I've read on your site just might explain why the Lowther's fatigue my ears so quickly. I believe it's the uneven response or shout that is offending my brain after awhile. With tube equipment running through the MG1's it's like laying on a bed of marshmallows while dangling your feet in warm water.
That said I'm still going to find a way of taming the DX-3's.
Rick
For me I've stuck with the tubes because I find myself willing to listen to my system longer at a sitting than with other means of amplification.
On another tangent but still dealing with listening fatigue or the lack there of, the reason I'm wanting to try different things for my DX-3's is because, depending on what I'm listening to music wise, I'm more apt to listen longer to my other speakers than I am the Lowther's in their current state.
At present I own 4 sets of speakers, the Lowthers, a pair of bookshelf Klipsch, Infinity RS-7b's, and a 30 year old pair of Magnapans.
Recently during some upheaval due to new video equipment coming into the house I got on a jag of dragging out old equipment that I haven't listened to in years. While doing this I spent one afternoon listening to my various speakers. Of the ones mentioned earlier I found out that I was willing to listen to the Magnapans the longest. Yes their a little bass shy and yes they don't have that snap that a Lowther possesses but they are very easy on the ear. I can listen to my current set up all day long. SET-Tube CD-Maggies.
Martin I think some of the ideas I've read on your site just might explain why the Lowther's fatigue my ears so quickly. I believe it's the uneven response or shout that is offending my brain after awhile. With tube equipment running through the MG1's it's like laying on a bed of marshmallows while dangling your feet in warm water.
That said I'm still going to find a way of taming the DX-3's.
Rick
I have two speakers currently loaded with Lowther drivers, including the DX3 ML TL pair and the Lowther OB pair, and neither of which exhibit any shout. I can configure either to shout by mistuning the design or the correction circuit. They are so good that I have stopped listening to my non-Lowther speakers and have sold off some of these pairs.
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