Is there such thing as filter free Fullrangers..?? - diyAudio
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Old 28th November 2006, 09:44 PM   #1
JandG is offline JandG  United States
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Default Is there such thing as filter free Fullrangers..??

I am in frustration as try my best to avoid any passive parts in my Saba's, etc. My green cones have the best magic & unreal transparancy I have heard, but the dang high mid peak. Every time a resistor of high quality , even 1, aka mills, is used in notch or padding or what ever, life goes with it..straight to voice coil is the dream. I have good 300B PP amp, & SE Klangfilm mono's & many other nice tube amps..just a shame, that I they get covered up with these filter's. Is there a GREAT fullranger in 8" or so that works well in OB that doesn't need a notch..? I have pristine signal from DAC to amp, TVC etc...I tried analog active & NOT for me...I am very hestant on the DEQ2496,,but this might have to do..What do you hard core Fullrange guy's do about not having any life sucking resistors & such in that part of the chain..I might try passive active, but then again there goes my pristine signal before amp that I have worked so hard on. I am going to keep running through German fullragers from late 40's to about 1955 or so. They are crazy good, but the green cones have that damn peak in the wrong spot for sure..I am in desperate need of help on which way to tackle this problem.
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Old 28th November 2006, 10:01 PM   #2
fedde is offline fedde  Netherlands
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Hi JandG,

I can recommend the Supravox HP215 Sign. bicone. It is reasonable flat although I admit that I most often use a EQ plugin on my computer (for a little bit more top highs and more bass). Not the cheapest unit available for sure, but it is of very good quality. If you don't want any EQ I'd advise to use an additional subwoofer/stereo bass system with them if you want deeper bass. I use them in open baffles for openess and speed. With other designs, more bass should be possible.

Good luck,

Fedde
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Old 28th November 2006, 10:55 PM   #3
JandG is offline JandG  United States
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Default Thanks for the help..

I use OB bass augmentaion when wnated or needed with certian types of music, entegration is a nice success via active BASH plates for the Vifa's. Today iam running the ribbon @ 2500 2nd order & a single .22mh air coil on Saba for 3500 1st..seems to be very nice, but of course not near what direct to amp can do...I have tried many, mnay differant combos of filters & such with the Saba, I wouldn't even mess with it if there wasn't that something speacial there. I will look into the Supravox, if they are under 400 for the pair I might go there.
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Old 29th November 2006, 12:04 AM   #4
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
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JandG,

Have you added more "blue-tack" and tried the felt yet?

I can't tell from the photo, but if you haven't, you really owe it to yourself to try it out before you spend the money for another set of drivers.

I'm reluctant to advise you to try cone damping as the Saba drivers may be hard to come by. I was happy, more or less, with the mids on my 1197's; they certainly measured well and sounded OK. However, after two thin coats of the Planet10 "puzzlecoat" and the addition of a pair of Dave's phase plugs they have a midrange that doesn't give up anything and, in fact, are better than many expensive speakers.
I'm sure that you can find a lot of info by doing a search on the forum, there have been a lot of threads that touched on this.

Best Regards,
TerryO

BTW: You've mentioned a high mid peak as the problem, have you tried disconnecting the tweeter and listening to them? With a 2nd order @2500 for the ribbon and a 1st order @3500 for the Saba, you might be allowing a peak in the overlap region. I might add, and it's only a vague opinion, that quite often ribbon tweeters are crossed over too low and they cause problems. I'd try a higher frequency and perhaps a different order crossover for the ribbon. Get some cheap caps and start at a lot higher frequency (I'd probably start at about 7kHz and work down).
You may have already done all this, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
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Old 29th November 2006, 01:23 AM   #5
JandG is offline JandG  United States
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Default I am considering the phase pugs...

I have used Dave's plugs on a shouty fe167 & it helped considerably. Thing is I am kinda scared at this point with doing it to these.,,I am seriously thinking of doing it though.it would be well worth it. also considering the puzzle coat. If I go phase plugs, then I go all the way. The pic doesn't show the blue tack application. I did add more & surpisingly helped alot. I can almost go without filters. The Saba's have a good top end & listen to them without tweeters all the time.. The Ribbon @ 2500 2nd & Saba @ 3500 1st was just for kicks, it actualy workes well. I use tests clips & try many , many differant orders & notches. The Fountek dc3 seems to not like 1st order unless way out there.. I use .22uf mostly,, But I think the peak in the Saba is @ 3000-4000 instead of the 1500 reported peak, Notches down in the 1500 area don't work for me at all. , notches around 3000-4000 work, but then the penalty of life killing the driver. so I thought to try a gentel 3500 1st & try the Foutek recommended 2500 2nd order. it is smooth for sure & no padding needed, which is a biggy for me, because it seems that any resistor in series with that ribbon is a real killer. a .6mh coil & 6.7uf auricap is used. I am new to all this & haveing the time of my life, this is seroiuse fun. I will ask Dave if he has made plugs for the Saba before or has something that will work..If I x higher than 4000 the peak is there, almost a ring of sorts.. if a .22mh coil is aplied to the 5ohm Saba the pe3ak is gone, but then of course top end is lost in the shuffle.I need more caps...I have quite a few, but need alot more values for test clipping circuits. I will try the felt very soon also..The hype on the saba;s is justfied in OB for sure, if I can get them to behave.There strenghths are amazing. I will keep tyring to cure the peak.
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Old 29th November 2006, 05:29 AM   #6
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
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JandG,

If the extra Blue-tack helped, then that's certainly encouraging. If you're convinced that the Sabas are the source of the peak (are you hearing this and/or measuring it?) then I'd leave the tweeter disconnected and remove or perhaps install a bypass switch for the inductor while sorting thru this problem. It might be a good idea to be able to test the Sabas both ways.

I believe that adding felt to the insides of the spokes would be the next step as it can only help and shouldn't present any problems. I used felt that I got at the local fabric store and it wasn't as thick as I would have wished. Thinking about it now, I probably could have used a couple of layers cut to shape and basted together on the edges (and the center area too, no flapping allowed !) with thread. I wouldn't glue them together as that would form a barrier between the layers and defeat the purpose. Use Aleene's Original Tacky Glue applied to the felt and press it into place.

Aleene's is great stuff, BTW. Mixed with drywall mud, it can be used on the inside of cabinets for adding mass and damping panel resonance. This mixture is very close, if not identical, to the "Glop" that North Creek used to sell. Aleene's is soft and never sets up hard, so it aids in suppressing vibration all by itself.

Another thought comes to mind, could you be experiencing a harmonic resonance from the baffle itself? From the picture it looks as it the baffle isn't braced. If you have a cd of test tones you might want to play those and listen to the speaker with or without a mechanic's Stethoscope held to the baffle. Perhaps you could place a length of 2X4 along one of the back edges of the baffle, held in place with several C-clamps, and see if anything sounds better or at least different.

It sounds as if you're a pretty methodical person, so perhaps you've already anticipated much of this and have already tried it out.
As always, these are just suggestions.

Best Regards,
TerryO
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Old 29th November 2006, 06:06 AM   #7
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Default test tones...

I use a yamaha dx-7 programmable synth to test for resonances... something similar can be found on the internet. soft synth... It allows me to build harmonics, etc. with low power fundamental, higher power harmonics, like a cello, etc. that is just used as an example. actually I get to test whatever I want. I also get to take a small lead weight to hold down a key while using the stethoscope, etc.

as far as shoutiness goes, I think it very well could be from the crossover on the tweet. I tend to like the effect of a "supertweeter" far more. one crossed in at 10k and up. the ear is far less sensitive to crappiness there, whereas 3k is smack dab where the ear is going to be able to hear a loss in life, or a distortion, etc. my rationale? use the best sounding driver as much as you can, and make accomidations for its growing weirdnesses as you spread its playable spectrum along.

remember that all points are floating when you get to this level of fidelity and refinement. you will end up having to settle for one set of compromises or another. what do I do?

well, I don;t tend to play much with OB, so for high freq resonances, I just damp the horn CC
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Old 29th November 2006, 12:57 PM   #8
JandG is offline JandG  United States
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Default It is not a shout issue as one would think..

It is not a shout issue persay as Fostex & such, it is a percieng ring that comes @ mid high, The ribbon cross @ 2500 2nd is for kicks & Most of the time is not used & if so I use a .22uf Auricap, so it is way out there.I will keep trying to get it out any way I can, without electrical filters. That is my goal..NO filters
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Old 29th November 2006, 01:12 PM   #9
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I started my Fullrange journey with the Sabas, yes amazing sound for that money but the peak is very very obvious.. If you are willing to try other fullrangers I would recommend the Coral Flats 8,10 and the Beta 8 and 10... No filters need at all, you might find the Flats especially the Flat 10 a wee bit rolled but you can always add a tweeter.
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Old 29th November 2006, 01:18 PM   #10
badman is offline badman  United States
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Dampen the driver frame with felt, etc.
You could put a foam grille in front of the driver and lose all the high end
You could damp the cone and lose efficiency.

2 of these are throwing out the baby with the bathwater to some extent.....

Have you tried a variable resistor based notch filter? You can tune to the threshold of where you start to lose 'life', I bet you can take some of the edge off, with careful tuning, without any significant downside..
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