Is there such thing as filter free Fullrangers..??

[TerryO]

Originally posted by badman
Dampen the driver frame with felt, etc.
You could put a foam grille in front of the driver and lose all the high end
You could damp the cone and lose efficiency.

2 of these are throwing out the baby with the bathwater to some extent.....

Have you tried a variable resistor based notch filter? You can tune to the threshold of where you start to lose 'life', I bet you can take some of the edge off, with careful tuning, without any significant downside..

B-Man,
I don't neccessarily disagree with what you've said above, but my experience has been that a couple of thin coats of "Puzzle Coat" doesn't effect the efficiency very much, if at all. It does effect high frequency extention to a degree that may have beneficial results, or not, it depends on what you're looking for. It does dampen ringing a fair amount and evens out the frequency response in the applications that I've done, which were confirmed by measurements done by Dan Wiggins of Adire Audio. I do know that if done correctly that the improvements far outweigh any negative effects that may be present.
You suggest a variable resistor based notch filter, and that may indeed be the answer, but I would look to a mechanical solution first. This is perhaps a difference in approach while looking for a similar result. As has been said before: "There's more than one way to skin a cat."

Best Regards,
TerryO

[JandG]

Badman.. can you explain how to do the variable resistor based notch, so I can try it if all else fails, I just recieved a set of rare mag type, Saba black cones in earlly version, will be intresting to see if they have same peak.
BTW- Thanks for the Coral recommendation. I know I won't be getting Beta 8's or 10's at the prices I have seen lately, The flats might be possible..I will learn alot in this process. A mechanical solution would be perfect for me, if it can be done, we will see in time. i am logging all the recommended behaved Fullrangers for sure.

[badman]

A variable notch filter will be a variable power resistor of some sort (generally an L-pad), in series with a paralleled inductor/capacitor combination. Generally you'd be looking at a parallel network (parallel to the driver). You'll want to use something along the lines of 10-20 ohms, even as low as 8, and you'll have to calculate the inductor and capacitor to get the desired notch profile. Once you have a deep notch at the problem frequency via the inductor and cap, you use the variable resistor to tune how much of a cut they provide.
It'll take a little fiddling and math to get it right.


My only problem with cone treatment solutions is that they're typically impossible to reverse, and we're talking about some nice drivers. If you do go this route, go SLOWLY, and make the changes in very very very small increments and measure and listen until you find where you want to be.

[Dumbass]

Originally posted by JandG
My green cones have the best magic & unreal transparancy I have heard, but the dang high mid peak. Every time a resistor of high quality , even 1, aka mills, is used in notch or padding or what ever, life goes with it..straight to voice coil is the dream.

A conjecture:

Perhaps the high/mid peak is the exact thing that you hear as "magic", "transparency", and "life".

If you really don't want a filter between your monoblocks and the Sabas, then use a line level filter (active or passive) in front of the monoblocks. Some sort of adjustable notch filter, where you could change the dB, frequency, and Q, would be ideal, because you could fiddle with it on the fly.

[Klimon]

Here's a site with some measurements on saba's and other vintage speakers: http://home.arcor.de/pfaue/klangkue/...ie/galerie.htm

I used to own a pair of ferrite magnet greencones and sold them after listening to them for two minutes - The high-mid shout being awfull. Imo the only reason why greencones are so famous is that they can easily be recognised amongst all the others (well, they are green) and the hype just can't be stopped since. You might want to take a look into oval speakers, these often perform better than round ones.

I don't think the notch filter is a good idea either, if you have a problem with a first order XO than you'll definitely have one with a parallel notch filter. I've gone through the same journey with my beyma 8ag/n's and although the notch is an overall better solution the magic IS gone (and it has more to do with naturalness and projection of the sound as with altered FR). They're now collecting dust.

fwiw

Simon

[JandG]

Since only bieng in fullrange for less than a year & no plans to return to dedicated drivers, the journey will just continue if this failes with the very early saba black cones & the greens. I have seen graphs on the saba's & they differ with differant magnet assemblies.. I can compare to Fostex fe167e & the shout they have in the vocals, even with phase plugs & such is not what I got going on here, this ring & peak is at a higher range..I think.. The magic I speak is not the peak.. I have found that coils don't bother me to much & seem to have less negitives..but resistors seem to kill dynamics quick, & quick..something I do not like..I I notice that factory German set ups I have seen have the tweeter @ 10uf cap & that is it on the Saba set ups..I will give the earlly black cones a shot for sure this weekend..& also work on the greens..I will be getting a differant set of FR's to try soon, with a 400.00 limit for them, not to worried about top extension,, just as long as they can get to 70hz in OB with fairly small baffles. 24" x36" or so..I then augment with active OB bass help when wanted..seems to work just fine. the passive active network in front of my amps might be a solution also, & will look at my Tube Cad program for Idea's on that also. Also I thought the hype on green cones was just that & wouldn'y hesistate to sell them if there wasn't something there worth giving it shot..without dought they have that something,& just trying to sqeeze it out without those big neg's.. I have tried active op-amp based XO's & definatlly NOT for me & unit is for sale soon. Also I have a nice signal going on to my amp, NO op-amps what soever from DAC thru amp.. TVC with nice cable's & that it is, so very shy about sticking things in it's path, believe me I can hear the differance between PEC pots mouted in amps & a TVC...also 1 single op-amp in front of my amp is easily heard with very negitive results to me, opa-627 or what ever..so I just run completely by-passed output stages on my DACs, & signal fed thru best caps I can a afford. PIO or Auricap. all this is a fine line I suppose & will try most all the suggetions, except maybe the cone treatment. last p[air of the Saba's I have went for $255.00 on e-bay last month..so I would have to keep them forever if I do the cone mod.
If the black cones with extremelly large VAC mag have the same peak, that might make me go a differant direction on FR's..maybe hemp or something..Thank you for all the suggestions & help

[Klimon]

Have you considered the Hawthorne audio silver iris coax? People seem to love them in OB - what they're designed for - and I haven't heard much about the need for extra circuits with these.... a guy called hurdygurdyman (you'll find him on the decware forum) has a widely approved tweak to optimise the crossover..... This combination has been said to sound even better than visaton b200 in open baffle........

edit: it does have resistors in the XO, didn't think of that.

Good luck to you,

Simon

[Norris Wilson]

Here is a link to information that I hope will be useful.
Good luck!
NW

http://de.geocities.com/peter_rehkop/system.html

[BTW]

Originally posted by JandG
Since only bieng in fullrange for less than a year & no plans to return to dedicated drivers, the journey will just continue if this failes with the very early saba black cones & the greens. FR's..maybe hemp or something..Thank you for all the suggestions & help

The Black cones Sabas IMO are better than the Green Cones but it still has that peak. At one of our local Diy meetings, we once put a first order crossover to roll the highs and peak of the Black Sabas off and added a Fostex tweeter for the highs .. sound quite good.

[JandG]

I found that a single .22mh aircoil for a 3500hz 1st order is better than any notch filter I have made with premium parts. Then I bring in the ribbon at variouse spots & not finding the perfect spot yet..I have ribbon at 2500 2nd order now, & sonics are quite good. No padding on ribbon needed. Is the coil on the black cones what you did also..? If it wasn't for the excellent lowend IMO & excellect low mids I would abondon the saba's. I will work with them for a while longer. I would try the SI's but the xo, is what it is,,a comprimise that I am not sure I want tmake, so B200 might be what comes in the mail for me soon. I have multiple tube systems so I can tweek on OB while just listening to another when failure is present, which is alot.......*s* but I am very intrested in what you used in your 1st order cross to dump the peak,,I feel it is in the 3000-4000hz area..that is what my ears tell me. My TrueRTA is not functional yet. .. aalso why would the ribbon @ 2500 2nd work so well with a 3500 1st on the SABA . I have tried many, many other XO combo's & this one is good. But with the consequence of the obviouse. The outstading vocal ability of the Saba's are retained with the way I run now. Can you remeber the value of coil they used at that DIY event.?s
Also kinda exciting to know the black cones might sound even better. These are the very earlly ones with the mosnter slug of Alnico by VAC. & luckily they arrived as stated condition, from Germany. Thanks