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Old 26th November 2006, 12:08 AM   #11
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Hi Scott - many thanks for Vofo's Z - prediction - interesting to see equal amplitude peaks.

Not sure how a Karlson or Fulmer opening would affect things although could give a more "merged" sound of vent to driver - ?

would you mind looking at my existing line pic and Z curve and give guestimate of where Z-minimum should be set for Beta 12LTA? - just an off the head guess would be good nuff. Internal volume of the line is about 130 liter/4.7 cubic foot. Its on old pipe meant for sub but in lieu of having any good saw, etc I'm trying to make it play as a FR.

Z-minimum with a 3.5" hole at the end of the line looks to be around 28hz and Beta 12LTA has fs ~45Hz

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/7643/linenr9.jpg

http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/2586/12ltz1gw5.jpg

Freddy
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Old 26th November 2006, 12:59 AM   #12
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Hi Guys

Vent is indeed cushioned, in this case 1/2 inch felt underlay(not shown on original plan). Internal dimensions are shown on the plan, I appreciate you have to work a bit harder here, but thats half the fun. Bottom section shows internal dimensions. Port area is shown as percentage of mouth area and is designed as max before mass loading to allow further experimentation with blocking. I had intended to progressively block and measure with clio to record the effect.

the design was not a result of mathcad, it was pure experiment on my part....I'm still not convinced its worthy but I'm coming round due to Scotts enthusiasm, for which I thanks him.

I will probably update the design plan in due course(as long as Dave get's off my case regarding the 'old-fashioned' web site)

heres the port:




Regards

Ed
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Old 26th November 2006, 01:53 AM   #13
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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you sure built beautiful enclosures - is there any hint of "one-note" bass or pipe resonance? I'm totally inexperienced with pipes and pipehorn other than a 10ft t-line and a 7 foot line both which seem to "drone" wideband and they're were probably not properly matched to driver.

Best,
Freddy
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Old 26th November 2006, 04:17 AM   #14
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Default you have replaced your Stats....

To quote "I'm still not convinced its worthy" end quote. I think that you have done a great job. That fact that you did this by the seat of your pants proves to me that the "force" is strong with you. Not only that but they look fantastic as well. To replace a set of ESL's is a big deal. Sounds to me like you need to fit some phase plugs apply some duct sea land felt then try shorting the speaker basket to the neg terminal on the connector strip (centre rivit on strip to neg connection). All the best regards Moray James.
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Old 26th November 2006, 05:08 AM   #15
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Default Ok Freddy...

Quote:
Originally posted by freddi
Scott - is there an impedance curve available of the Vofo ? (did I overlook one?) how were the vent's proper area figured? with MJK's sheets? - a modeling program? - "experience"?

Moray - this is a pretty cabinet. I wish the Karlson builders (all two or three - if that many? - out of 6.6 billion people would kome out of the woodwork - there is a page to be found under "Carlson-coupler" which has a cryptic calculator.

Freddy
Just give me a link have been looking a long while for the cryptic calculator can-t find it. Please Thanks Moray James.
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Old 26th November 2006, 09:20 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by freddi
you sure built beautiful enclosures - is there any hint of "one-note" bass or pipe resonance?
Best,
Freddy

Hi Freddy

thanks for the feedback. I find the bass very tuneful and very easy to follow. As for resonance, I havn't heard any. At a recent DIY meet one chap did report that they 'honked' and sounded like horns. I'm not qualified to respond to this so perhaps Scott might like to comment as he has more of a technicians ear and he's spent sometime listening.

Regards

Ed
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Old 26th November 2006, 09:49 AM   #17
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Hi Moray

Thanks for the kind words.

I don't think I'll be fitting the phase plugs. I'm a firm believer in 'If something works then don't fiddle with it'. They work for me and I couldn't bear to take a scalpel to them anyway.

Regards

Ed
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Old 26th November 2006, 11:00 AM   #18
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Freddi -depends how long the line is, but I'd guess at 30Hz with that taper ratio, give or take so you're probably in the right regions.

FWIW, I disagreed with the comments re this design 'honking' made elsewhere. Without starting to drift off too far into technicalities and send everyone to sleep, to me, 'honk' is a euphanism for unbalanced bass, with gain above the driver's nominal sensitivity (in the case of the 206 theoretically 96db 1w / 1m) resulting in a hollow, boomy sound. These pipes do not display that, either in a sim, or on the Clio measurements, nor in listening; at least not to my ears.

TQWT does tend to have a certain type of presentation in my experience -a forcefulness in the upper and mid-bass, over and above what you would get from, say, a reflex cabinet, or even in some respects a straight MLTL. This is not an effect you'd read on a graph though -it's the way in which it goes about achieving that response. If I'm confusing anyone, take a different analogy. It's like having two cars. Both are limited to 155mph flat out. Both have identical acceleration times. One has a big V6, the other a turbocharged 4. Objectively the performance is the same on paper or a graph, but the feel of both is different due to the different manner in which they get the same result.

Back on these speakers, the horn analogy is quite a good one IMO as all tapered lines at a basic level can be regarded as such; the TQWT differs from most other horn variations however in being end loaded, and this pressure-approach is probably what gives it that characteristic punch. However, it varies according to the degree of taper, and the CSA of So (the sealed end) which determines pipe-gain and the passband across which maximum gain will be applied. You can hear a very slight touch of this effect in Martin King's Project 2 ML TQWT, but being a trunkated pipe, and with greater mass-loading the effect is muted. Put it back to back against a straight MLTL with the same driver though and it's still there.

Some like this sort of approach, some don't, YMMV, as ever. I do, because these are characteristics I happen to value in a cabinet, both for the way I listen, and the material I often listen to. I found they start and stop very well, dynamics subjectively similar to a full-blown horn, and hed plenty of grunt to handle rock as well as an FR driver can be expected to. I also suspect some people might well have been hearing a room-mode rather than the speaker itself as our listening positions at Eggfest were not ideal, with so many people . These are big transducers, with a large cone area, cabinet volume and vent area, and they shift a lot of air: more than a couple of small subwoofers, and this will excite room-resonances more readily than some other systems. Just my views of course.
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Old 26th November 2006, 01:34 PM   #19
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Hi Ed - sounds like you nailed a good/smooth and eye-pleasing design.

Hi Scott - thanks for comments - I tend to like most horn - mine are old Edgarhorn system 100 with Monolith, Sentry IV, etc. Even FH1 (like better braced Belle) has merits although its limited to about 80-100Hz bottom

Hi Moray

"Just give me a link have been looking a long while for the cryptic calculator can-t find it. Please Thanks Moray James"

when searching for "carlson coupler", Google's translator pulls up the following

http://translate.google.com/translat...era%26rls%3Den

this is buried within Walter Herman's speaker pages but I couldn't figure out what the calculator is trying to do - perhaps you can ask Walter and his experiences building "Carlson". phonetics can leave out some folks if looking for "Karlson"

http://www.walter-hermann.de/


Freddy
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Old 26th November 2006, 03:12 PM   #20
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Default Fostex 206esr?

Scott,

I have never built any FR speakers before and really like old rock music. I want to build a SE amp for my office ("My cave" as my family calls it ) I was wondering if the 206esr driver is worth the added expense and if this cabinet would be a proper for it. Your thoughts would be sincerely appreciated.
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