im debating what speaker i should choose. I would probably use it for a small cheap computer speaker. one speaker is the GOLDWOOD GW-8003/8 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-379&scqty=2
the other speaker (PIONEER B20FU20)
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-045&scqty=2
i don't know if i really need the high end of the goldwood because if not i would rather have the pioneer with the better bass. But if you could give some input that would be very appreciated. thanks
the other speaker (PIONEER B20FU20)
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-045&scqty=2
i don't know if i really need the high end of the goldwood because if not i would rather have the pioneer with the better bass. But if you could give some input that would be very appreciated. thanks
IMHO the Pioneer is the better speaker. I played with both
and the graphs and commentary are in "Current Source
Amplifiers and Full Range Speakers" at www.firstwatt.com
and the graphs and commentary are in "Current Source
Amplifiers and Full Range Speakers" at www.firstwatt.com
Nelson Pass said:IMHO the Pioneer is the better speaker. I played with both
and the graphs and commentary are in "Current Source
Amplifiers and Full Range Speakers" at www.firstwatt.com
What he said.
(Gooogle "nelson pass" and "pass labs". Yes, THAT nelson pass.)
playing more...
just got in 4 pioneers and 4 goldwood 1.50 piezo tweeters. one project will go to a girlfriend, the other is a small commission by a friend to build a cheap fun system that will play relatively loud and clean.
one system will be an old radio conversion. 5 watt per channel el84, tl-vent loading (or sealed, whichever is better). this is in effort to have a piece of actual furniture that makes music. not this gidget gadget stuff that needs racks and power conditioning and spikes... (not that I personally use that stuff now anyways). In my less hifi oriented times, I had one of the large stereo tube sets for years. a montgomery ward airline radio. you could plug in an aux. it had this etherial quality to the sound. triode+alnico... it rendered me and my friends into multiple and powerful guitar gazms over the course of those years. its what got me hooked on tube sound. I could put books on top of it, spill stuff on it, and it still sounded great. I finally gutted it for parts and wood. while it was in tact, it simply fit into college dorm lifestyle...
the other pair of drivers will go into boxes that are .5 cu ft sealed 8 inch truck subwoofer cabinets, and a t-amp. this is the small dorm room project.
looking around zilla's projects with the pioneers in sealed cabinets, his hi fi results seemed very encouraging.
I have been looking around for a while trying to find cheap(!), small, but killer systems that I can build for friends in an hour or so, or that I can instruct them on how to build. listening to the drivers in my 8 inch sealed test cabinets seems very promising indeed.
at the cain and cain shop, some of our shop speakers are b20s in vented cabinets with the old rat shack add on tweeter. terry made them some time ago. they look anctient. I have listened to these for years and always found them to have a really fun sound. just very well balanced overall, with an easy, and forgiving tone of ancillary equipment. they allow me to easily listen to the music, and even to engage in it to a surprising degree.
with all the playing I do with back loaded horns, sometimes, I have to admit coming back to the cheap stuff for the instant gratification time and again. I feel like I have the knowledge at this point in my life to turn that stuff into works of musical art with relative ease. the larger more hyper detailed and demanding stuff I lack the time and bank account, not to mention time, and shop to fully realize potentials in any timely manner. I gradually learn from these few high end projects as a continual process, so hardly is it wasted. additionally, as they reach further and further refinement, the payoffs really start to show. with single driver systems making effortless entirely too many of the qualities they should struggle with. bending paridigms is fun.
With most of my friends listening to mp3s, even the audiophiles, it is questionable to delve too far into the realm of the highest frequencies, the lowest bass or any sense of absolute detail. as far as I am concerned, tone is far more important for most people and most musical experiences.
the pioneers seem to give a nice stable "frame" within which the musical event unfolds. and yes, they are quite detailed, just not absolutely so. the "muddiness" that happens is very different from say, a fostex, where the muddiness of an amplifier or source or poor cabinet implimentation quickly clouds the total sound image. instead, the muddiness of the pioneer is almost a nice feature, giving a gentle "sfumato" effect, and seemingly pleasantly enlarging the image to some degree. this is almost an etherial quality. even a "magic," dare I say. I really do like them.
gentleness is a wonderful quality of these drivers. remaining quite hifi in the mean time.
in the end, the pioneers just have a wonderful tone to them. very gratifying. especially for 24 bucks. this is another case of bending paradigms.
disadvantages? - the biggest one to me is that it necessitates the use of a well implimented tweeter at a fairly low crossover point. it does not need to be a hyper speed tweeter though as this is a "slower" "larger" driver. and it only needs to do the upper frequencies well. and by well, I mean without profound resonance and in the same easy dynamic manner that the full range operates in, being a large one. if the piezo is not clean enough to my liking, I might end up playing with cheapo tiny fostex full rangers paralleled and crossed in high, kinda like some of the nagaoka designs, or a well attenuated nicer supertweeter like the ft17h.
I have no opinions on the other drivers mentioned by other folks as I have not heard them.
anyways, see y'all
Clark
just got in 4 pioneers and 4 goldwood 1.50 piezo tweeters. one project will go to a girlfriend, the other is a small commission by a friend to build a cheap fun system that will play relatively loud and clean.
one system will be an old radio conversion. 5 watt per channel el84, tl-vent loading (or sealed, whichever is better). this is in effort to have a piece of actual furniture that makes music. not this gidget gadget stuff that needs racks and power conditioning and spikes... (not that I personally use that stuff now anyways). In my less hifi oriented times, I had one of the large stereo tube sets for years. a montgomery ward airline radio. you could plug in an aux. it had this etherial quality to the sound. triode+alnico... it rendered me and my friends into multiple and powerful guitar gazms over the course of those years. its what got me hooked on tube sound. I could put books on top of it, spill stuff on it, and it still sounded great. I finally gutted it for parts and wood. while it was in tact, it simply fit into college dorm lifestyle...
the other pair of drivers will go into boxes that are .5 cu ft sealed 8 inch truck subwoofer cabinets, and a t-amp. this is the small dorm room project.
looking around zilla's projects with the pioneers in sealed cabinets, his hi fi results seemed very encouraging.
I have been looking around for a while trying to find cheap(!), small, but killer systems that I can build for friends in an hour or so, or that I can instruct them on how to build. listening to the drivers in my 8 inch sealed test cabinets seems very promising indeed.
at the cain and cain shop, some of our shop speakers are b20s in vented cabinets with the old rat shack add on tweeter. terry made them some time ago. they look anctient. I have listened to these for years and always found them to have a really fun sound. just very well balanced overall, with an easy, and forgiving tone of ancillary equipment. they allow me to easily listen to the music, and even to engage in it to a surprising degree.
with all the playing I do with back loaded horns, sometimes, I have to admit coming back to the cheap stuff for the instant gratification time and again. I feel like I have the knowledge at this point in my life to turn that stuff into works of musical art with relative ease. the larger more hyper detailed and demanding stuff I lack the time and bank account, not to mention time, and shop to fully realize potentials in any timely manner. I gradually learn from these few high end projects as a continual process, so hardly is it wasted. additionally, as they reach further and further refinement, the payoffs really start to show. with single driver systems making effortless entirely too many of the qualities they should struggle with. bending paridigms is fun.
With most of my friends listening to mp3s, even the audiophiles, it is questionable to delve too far into the realm of the highest frequencies, the lowest bass or any sense of absolute detail. as far as I am concerned, tone is far more important for most people and most musical experiences.
the pioneers seem to give a nice stable "frame" within which the musical event unfolds. and yes, they are quite detailed, just not absolutely so. the "muddiness" that happens is very different from say, a fostex, where the muddiness of an amplifier or source or poor cabinet implimentation quickly clouds the total sound image. instead, the muddiness of the pioneer is almost a nice feature, giving a gentle "sfumato" effect, and seemingly pleasantly enlarging the image to some degree. this is almost an etherial quality. even a "magic," dare I say. I really do like them.
gentleness is a wonderful quality of these drivers. remaining quite hifi in the mean time.
in the end, the pioneers just have a wonderful tone to them. very gratifying. especially for 24 bucks. this is another case of bending paradigms.
disadvantages? - the biggest one to me is that it necessitates the use of a well implimented tweeter at a fairly low crossover point. it does not need to be a hyper speed tweeter though as this is a "slower" "larger" driver. and it only needs to do the upper frequencies well. and by well, I mean without profound resonance and in the same easy dynamic manner that the full range operates in, being a large one. if the piezo is not clean enough to my liking, I might end up playing with cheapo tiny fostex full rangers paralleled and crossed in high, kinda like some of the nagaoka designs, or a well attenuated nicer supertweeter like the ft17h.
I have no opinions on the other drivers mentioned by other folks as I have not heard them.
anyways, see y'all
Clark
Thanks for that post, Clark. I hear you loud and clear.
Tone is so important. And a lot of the old radios and consoles had great tone. Great fidelity, no. But great tone. I remember a lovely RCA AM/SW/LW radio, big floor stander. What a wonderful sound. Just how Hi-Fi can AM or shortwave get? But the RCA was very pleasant and satisfying to listen to - even on scratchy AM or SW. My old Grundig late 60's stereo console was nice to listen to. Not Hi-Fi, but great tone. Enjoyable.
Remember the classic MacIntosh tube amps? Not neutral in the least - but what fun to listen to! Warm and lush. That's why they sold so well - and still have cult status.
The Pioneer looks like a fun driver. Thanks for telling us more about it.
When you get the detail, the imaging, the bandwidth AND the tone right, well - that's magic. But it ain't easy to do....
Tone is so important. And a lot of the old radios and consoles had great tone. Great fidelity, no. But great tone. I remember a lovely RCA AM/SW/LW radio, big floor stander. What a wonderful sound. Just how Hi-Fi can AM or shortwave get? But the RCA was very pleasant and satisfying to listen to - even on scratchy AM or SW. My old Grundig late 60's stereo console was nice to listen to. Not Hi-Fi, but great tone. Enjoyable.
Remember the classic MacIntosh tube amps? Not neutral in the least - but what fun to listen to! Warm and lush. That's why they sold so well - and still have cult status.
The Pioneer looks like a fun driver. Thanks for telling us more about it.
When you get the detail, the imaging, the bandwidth AND the tone right, well - that's magic. But it ain't easy to do....
Hi blumenco! Thanks for your great post on the B20!
>>> at the cain and cain shop, some of our shop speakers are b20s in vented cabinets with the old rat shack add on tweeter.
Can you share the dims and vent size with us on these?
>>> the muddiness of the pioneer is almost a nice feature, giving a gentle "sfumato" effect, and seemingly pleasantly enlarging the image to some degree. this is almost an etherial quality. even a "magic," dare I say. I really do like them.
The Mona Lisa of full range drivers. Not the greatest painting but with qualities that set it apart (sfumato). This is a great description of the B20s sound IMO. It’s a fuzzy edged sound that isn’t hyper detailed like the Fostex. But Stan Getz, Eva Cassidy and even Weezer sound really great. It’s only when I compare to the Fostex drivers that I realize detail is not as apparent. The B20s have more life to them than the TB drivers I have on hand.
The B20 can sound slow… I call it relaxed… and it does need a tweeter. Since it’s not the highest rez driver I have no problem mating it with a lower quality tweeter and an Lpad. I highly recommend the lemon squeezer tweeter facing backwards. Many hate that tweeter... but the way it's used with the B20 works very well IMO.
“Piezo on back with 20 ohm resister across and a 1uf (1.33uf will add a more mid-treble and always seemed too hot - .67uf always sounded dull even turned all the way up) capacitor connected to L-pad”
If you want to mount the piezo on the front I found an 8 ohm resister and .47uf work best (no Lpad). There will be more sizzle and spit tho when front mounted. I like it better on the back personally.
This was what my ears told me was correct. You may find different values work better for you. The Lpad allows to adjust the tweeter when moving the speakers into different rooms. These are currently my main office speakers but I move them into the conference room for parties and demonstrations sometimes… soon they may go into the basement. They are a little light in the bass overall if not placed close to the wall or near corners. The piezo is just a supplement… adding what the B20s just don’t have (a top octave or two).
I have been enjoying mine for years now… Just seal em up and listen!
Although, I wouldn’t mind playing with ported or aperiodic enclosures for the B20 soon… they are a great driver to experiment with and listen too!
Godzilla
>>> at the cain and cain shop, some of our shop speakers are b20s in vented cabinets with the old rat shack add on tweeter.
Can you share the dims and vent size with us on these?
>>> the muddiness of the pioneer is almost a nice feature, giving a gentle "sfumato" effect, and seemingly pleasantly enlarging the image to some degree. this is almost an etherial quality. even a "magic," dare I say. I really do like them.
The Mona Lisa of full range drivers. Not the greatest painting but with qualities that set it apart (sfumato). This is a great description of the B20s sound IMO. It’s a fuzzy edged sound that isn’t hyper detailed like the Fostex. But Stan Getz, Eva Cassidy and even Weezer sound really great. It’s only when I compare to the Fostex drivers that I realize detail is not as apparent. The B20s have more life to them than the TB drivers I have on hand.
The B20 can sound slow… I call it relaxed… and it does need a tweeter. Since it’s not the highest rez driver I have no problem mating it with a lower quality tweeter and an Lpad. I highly recommend the lemon squeezer tweeter facing backwards. Many hate that tweeter... but the way it's used with the B20 works very well IMO.
“Piezo on back with 20 ohm resister across and a 1uf (1.33uf will add a more mid-treble and always seemed too hot - .67uf always sounded dull even turned all the way up) capacitor connected to L-pad”
If you want to mount the piezo on the front I found an 8 ohm resister and .47uf work best (no Lpad). There will be more sizzle and spit tho when front mounted. I like it better on the back personally.
This was what my ears told me was correct. You may find different values work better for you. The Lpad allows to adjust the tweeter when moving the speakers into different rooms. These are currently my main office speakers but I move them into the conference room for parties and demonstrations sometimes… soon they may go into the basement. They are a little light in the bass overall if not placed close to the wall or near corners. The piezo is just a supplement… adding what the B20s just don’t have (a top octave or two).
I have been enjoying mine for years now… Just seal em up and listen!
Although, I wouldn’t mind playing with ported or aperiodic enclosures for the B20 soon… they are a great driver to experiment with and listen too!
Godzilla
No one has built this as far as i know. I just posted it as an idea a week or two ago... the idea of four tweeters was to make sure the output level would be at least up to the Pioneer B20 + the contribution the BIB makes... approx 95db eff per watt... an Lpad would adjust volume to match per room/taste. My thinking was that big rooms would require more tweeter output. I can only imagine a speaker like this in a pretty large room.
I haven't figured out the wiring scheme yet... and can't build this BIB because there's not enough ceiling clearance in the basement!
http://www.zillaspeak.com/bib-pioneer.asp
I haven't figured out the wiring scheme yet... and can't build this BIB because there's not enough ceiling clearance in the basement!
http://www.zillaspeak.com/bib-pioneer.asp
The Pioneer B20's are a good all around speaker. I got them earlier this year and have enjoyed them very much. What I really like about them is that I can use them in different projects and they still work well.
When i first got them, I used them as the lower end in an Acoustic Research 3-way. I then moved them to being floorstander fullrangers w/ tweeter. (In this duty I agree with everything others have said. No listening fatigue for long periods of time.) I then needed the floorstander boxes for another project and the B20's are back in the AR boxes. My next project may be to use them as fullrange in the AR boxes and play them with some TangBand subs I got on sale.
For now, they perform their duties regardless of the task. They have enough range to be used as fullrange. They have enough low end to fill in 3-way bass duty without drawing too much attention to themselves.
Good all around speaker.
When i first got them, I used them as the lower end in an Acoustic Research 3-way. I then moved them to being floorstander fullrangers w/ tweeter. (In this duty I agree with everything others have said. No listening fatigue for long periods of time.) I then needed the floorstander boxes for another project and the B20's are back in the AR boxes. My next project may be to use them as fullrange in the AR boxes and play them with some TangBand subs I got on sale.
For now, they perform their duties regardless of the task. They have enough range to be used as fullrange. They have enough low end to fill in 3-way bass duty without drawing too much attention to themselves.
Good all around speaker.
If I were to throw together a simple cab using 4' lumber and butt joints (so I'd really only have to cut 1 or 2 pieces), what would be the best configuration to try?
If I went sealed I could go 6", 8" or 12" deep with a 9.5" wide baffle (would give 1674, 2418 and 3906 cubic inch volumes respectively) easily enough, though I'd prefer to stick to 6" and 8" depths if possible to make placement easiest and keep experimental lumber costs down.
I guess I could also build a transmission line like this too, just finding a way to stand these up away from the floor for the mouth.
I'm guessing that sealed starts losing bass once I pass a certain internal volume. I have no idea about what kind of performance I'd see in a TL, though I hear trying to move the driver down around a third of the line length helps with the ripple at the expense of some bass.
Any help?
Kensai
If I went sealed I could go 6", 8" or 12" deep with a 9.5" wide baffle (would give 1674, 2418 and 3906 cubic inch volumes respectively) easily enough, though I'd prefer to stick to 6" and 8" depths if possible to make placement easiest and keep experimental lumber costs down.
I guess I could also build a transmission line like this too, just finding a way to stand these up away from the floor for the mouth.
I'm guessing that sealed starts losing bass once I pass a certain internal volume. I have no idea about what kind of performance I'd see in a TL, though I hear trying to move the driver down around a third of the line length helps with the ripple at the expense of some bass.
Any help?
Kensai
aint played with tweeters yet... but had some questons
so the piezo tweeters seem very interesting in concept.
as far as attenuation goes, I have always had a major problem with l-pads on the fostex tweeters: t90a and t90aex. this was to try to bring their output down to that of the fe166es-r. in fact, as of yet, I have not found a solution to this tweetering this driver. I am really sensitive to the harshness of too much high frequencies, and I feel like I can still hear them very well, so I like them to be there. with much playing mosic on these more refined and dynamic drivers, I certainly like the tweeter facing to the front.
with the 206esr, for instance, I have found the cap value of .33 on the 90aex with frnt facing, flush with the baffle to be ideal for most any room.
in either case, the attenuation problems usually manifest themselves such that with greater atenuation, there are problems with dynamics and color. such that the resistors seemed to be thermally reacting, etc... to give a damping of the dynamics instead of just attenuation.
the color is really bothering. giving a hardness to the tweeter sound such that even though it is quieter, it gives more fatigue than the louder version.
I suppose the solution to this is transformer type attenuator, which is honestly worth it at far as the 166es-r is concerned. I will not be putting that together though till the swans are finished in a year or so.
in either case, godzilla, did you find color to show up with the piezo tweeters? and also let me get this straight, the resistor went ACROSS the terminals of the tweeter, not in series with the cap and positive terminal?
also, I am curious as to whether or not you tried goldwoods other larger horn piezo types, as they have less efficiency, and seem to have the potential to play lower more easily (larger horn mouth).
again, I have not played with tweeters on the pioneer yet, owing to time, but soon, soon.
yeah, I have not really found a big full range that will really and truely be able to be without a tweeter of some form or another to fill any sort of the large room that they were meant to be in. dispersion, dynamics, you may as well make the drivers need them rather than not.
see y'all
Clark
so the piezo tweeters seem very interesting in concept.
as far as attenuation goes, I have always had a major problem with l-pads on the fostex tweeters: t90a and t90aex. this was to try to bring their output down to that of the fe166es-r. in fact, as of yet, I have not found a solution to this tweetering this driver. I am really sensitive to the harshness of too much high frequencies, and I feel like I can still hear them very well, so I like them to be there. with much playing mosic on these more refined and dynamic drivers, I certainly like the tweeter facing to the front.
with the 206esr, for instance, I have found the cap value of .33 on the 90aex with frnt facing, flush with the baffle to be ideal for most any room.
in either case, the attenuation problems usually manifest themselves such that with greater atenuation, there are problems with dynamics and color. such that the resistors seemed to be thermally reacting, etc... to give a damping of the dynamics instead of just attenuation.
the color is really bothering. giving a hardness to the tweeter sound such that even though it is quieter, it gives more fatigue than the louder version.
I suppose the solution to this is transformer type attenuator, which is honestly worth it at far as the 166es-r is concerned. I will not be putting that together though till the swans are finished in a year or so.
in either case, godzilla, did you find color to show up with the piezo tweeters? and also let me get this straight, the resistor went ACROSS the terminals of the tweeter, not in series with the cap and positive terminal?
also, I am curious as to whether or not you tried goldwoods other larger horn piezo types, as they have less efficiency, and seem to have the potential to play lower more easily (larger horn mouth).
again, I have not played with tweeters on the pioneer yet, owing to time, but soon, soon.
yeah, I have not really found a big full range that will really and truely be able to be without a tweeter of some form or another to fill any sort of the large room that they were meant to be in. dispersion, dynamics, you may as well make the drivers need them rather than not.
see y'all
Clark
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.