I know this isn't really a "Full Range" setup as in single driver, but it's the only place where OB talk seems appropriate, so...
I'm pretty sure I want to go with an OB (dipole) setup again, but this time as the main channels. The reason I say "again" is because I have done this before, but it was a pair of dual 15" dipole subs... Some of you will remember me!
That entire system is long gone now since those subs took up way too much room and I couldn't get any decent placement for my Maggies.
Now I am back to a "monopole" sub using dual 15" Dayton DVC drivers in a push/pull configuration which has decent output down to 10Hz. It's crossed over at 50Hz.
Here's a more current view of my system...
So what I'm wanting to do now is build an OB using dual 15" again, but they need to reach up to 600Hz to meet the Altecs. I want to go OB because of the near perfect bass speed and attack, and also because of no coloration in the excellent midrange.
To get any kind of decent bass out of them (if I decide to play them fullrange from time to time) I'm going to have to build them tall and somewhat deep, not low and wide. As you can see, I'm limited in space due largely to the projection screen. And I think I would like to have both 15's up towards the top of the baffle to get them as clsoe as possible to the horn.
So what do you guys think of the design and do you think this driver would be up to the task?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-338
Thanks a bunch in advance!
I'm pretty sure I want to go with an OB (dipole) setup again, but this time as the main channels. The reason I say "again" is because I have done this before, but it was a pair of dual 15" dipole subs... Some of you will remember me!
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
That entire system is long gone now since those subs took up way too much room and I couldn't get any decent placement for my Maggies.
Now I am back to a "monopole" sub using dual 15" Dayton DVC drivers in a push/pull configuration which has decent output down to 10Hz. It's crossed over at 50Hz.
Here's a more current view of my system...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
So what I'm wanting to do now is build an OB using dual 15" again, but they need to reach up to 600Hz to meet the Altecs. I want to go OB because of the near perfect bass speed and attack, and also because of no coloration in the excellent midrange.
To get any kind of decent bass out of them (if I decide to play them fullrange from time to time) I'm going to have to build them tall and somewhat deep, not low and wide. As you can see, I'm limited in space due largely to the projection screen. And I think I would like to have both 15's up towards the top of the baffle to get them as clsoe as possible to the horn.
So what do you guys think of the design and do you think this driver would be up to the task?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-338
Thanks a bunch in advance!
Hey Chops(rr)
I remember you!
Cool idea. I had been planning something like it on paper, but was going to use the Eminence Alpha 15 because of the high Q and because Martin J King uses 2 in OB and really likes them. It's the "Big Butt" response of the high Q driver that looks good on paper. A little bass boost to counter the OB roll off, if you see what I mean.
But then I got to talking with friends who have done a lot of OB stuff, and was told that a more mid Q, like 0.6 usually works better, sounds better, has better control. The Eminence Beta 15 was suggested instead.
So from what I've learned, that Selenium 15 would make a very good choice. The Beta 15 has a little more x-max.
I remember you!
Cool idea. I had been planning something like it on paper, but was going to use the Eminence Alpha 15 because of the high Q and because Martin J King uses 2 in OB and really likes them. It's the "Big Butt" response of the high Q driver that looks good on paper. A little bass boost to counter the OB roll off, if you see what I mean.
But then I got to talking with friends who have done a lot of OB stuff, and was told that a more mid Q, like 0.6 usually works better, sounds better, has better control. The Eminence Beta 15 was suggested instead.
So from what I've learned, that Selenium 15 would make a very good choice. The Beta 15 has a little more x-max.
I sumulated both the Beta and the Alpha and the responses were very similar in my OB design. However, the Alpha did extend a little lower and was flatter between 50 and 100 Hz. The Beta looked alot like my original Dayton response with a rounded low end but did extend a little lower then the Dayton. So I selected the Alpha and do not regret the decision. I think both driver would work really well and the differences would be very small, so it becomes a matter of personal preference.
Thanks Martin! That's good to know.
So Alpha, Beta or Selenium should sound a lot alike. There you go Chops.
I am torn between doing an OB with the above drivers, or a sideways BIB. I know the OB is going to have a sound I will love, but a sideways BIB (flat side to the wall) is a verified High WAF design. Takes up so little floor space, you know.
So Alpha, Beta or Selenium should sound a lot alike. There you go Chops.
I am torn between doing an OB with the above drivers, or a sideways BIB. I know the OB is going to have a sound I will love, but a sideways BIB (flat side to the wall) is a verified High WAF design. Takes up so little floor space, you know.
This high Qts Ciare Bass starts with cone resonances later than Eminence, but is much more expensive. But I can`t tell you whether it is worth the money.
http://www.ciare.com/pdf/catalogo/CS382S.pdf
http://www.ciare.com/pdf/catalogo/CS382S.pdf
panomaniac said:
Yeah, thanks Martin!
Ok, so call me stupid, but what does "BIB" stand for?!
So say I go with the Selenium drivers, how big should I go with the baffles to get decent output down to at least 40Hz. I don't need super low performance since I am crossing over to my sub at 50Hz.
And I imagine that it would be fine to run both top and bottom drivers up to 600Hz where it crosses over to the horn?
BTW, the WAF doesn't "factor" into anything with me since I have no wife... yet!
Delta 15 LFA...
also looks very good for dipole bass gets low and has enough xmax. Are those Altec horns the 500's? My very first audio "to die for" was hearing a set of Altec Valencia's with the 500 Hz sectral horn (after first falling in love with the A7 which were too big for fit into my bedroom at the time). Regards Moray James.
also looks very good for dipole bass gets low and has enough xmax. Are those Altec horns the 500's? My very first audio "to die for" was hearing a set of Altec Valencia's with the 500 Hz sectral horn (after first falling in love with the A7 which were too big for fit into my bedroom at the time). Regards Moray James.
Sorry I missed that...
Chops damp those horns. I think that a pair of Delta's in a "W" style dipole with an Alpha or Beta on top OB for mid bass running up to the 511B might be the ticket. The design at the Herritagre site that talks about matching mid/bass driver dispersion to the horn is I think a key to making it all work. Believe that fellow used a ten inch unit below the horn. Have seen the same idea used with a 5 inch mid crossing to a 5 inch ribbon to achieve similar dispersion at crossover point. Looking forward to seeing your new design grow. Regards Moray James.
Chops damp those horns. I think that a pair of Delta's in a "W" style dipole with an Alpha or Beta on top OB for mid bass running up to the 511B might be the ticket. The design at the Herritagre site that talks about matching mid/bass driver dispersion to the horn is I think a key to making it all work. Believe that fellow used a ten inch unit below the horn. Have seen the same idea used with a 5 inch mid crossing to a 5 inch ribbon to achieve similar dispersion at crossover point. Looking forward to seeing your new design grow. Regards Moray James.
Hey Chops
The BIB is HERE.
But beware! The thread is over 1660 posts long.
So to sum up, the BIB stands for Bigger Is Better. It's a sort of back loaded horn or Voigt pipe with the top end open. One fold inside. Line length is usually 1/2 wavelength of driver FS. The box couples to the room to complete the horn. Should be placed against the wall and/or in a corner. Said to really get things shaking!
Moslty used with small drivers, like Fostex 6.5" full range to augment the bass. Some plans are in the works for larger drivers, some have been built. But a BIB for large drivers will get really huge, so no one has done it yet. Might take up the whole room. Not that you would mind.
My plan was to turn the broad side to the wall to make it blend into the wall. Maybe only 8 to 12" deep, but plenty wide.
Keep us informed on your OB project! Gotta have another look at the Deltas.
The BIB is HERE.
But beware! The thread is over 1660 posts long.
So to sum up, the BIB stands for Bigger Is Better. It's a sort of back loaded horn or Voigt pipe with the top end open. One fold inside. Line length is usually 1/2 wavelength of driver FS. The box couples to the room to complete the horn. Should be placed against the wall and/or in a corner. Said to really get things shaking!
Moslty used with small drivers, like Fostex 6.5" full range to augment the bass. Some plans are in the works for larger drivers, some have been built. But a BIB for large drivers will get really huge, so no one has done it yet. Might take up the whole room. Not that you would mind.
My plan was to turn the broad side to the wall to make it blend into the wall. Maybe only 8 to 12" deep, but plenty wide.
Keep us informed on your OB project! Gotta have another look at the Deltas.
What kind of action are you looking for, Chops? Looked like your questions had been answered. You got something else you want to know about or gather opinions on?
The drivers are fine, and 4 in stereo dipole are going to be pleanty for that room of yourse, but you know that already from your Pyle H-frames. Of course, you're not going to get flat to 16Hz or even 20Hz without EQ, and maybe not even then (or at least not while keeping the sound as clear as you may want), but that's the nature of the dipole bass beast.
You might look into ripole config for this. Take up less space, create lower FS, should couple to the room similarly as OB. moray james had a couple threads going on that a couple weeks back. Lots of driver discussion.
The BiBs are a great thing, and have a lot in common, listening wise with OB, but they're going in a different direction (less driver, more cabinet).
Kensai
The drivers are fine, and 4 in stereo dipole are going to be pleanty for that room of yourse, but you know that already from your Pyle H-frames. Of course, you're not going to get flat to 16Hz or even 20Hz without EQ, and maybe not even then (or at least not while keeping the sound as clear as you may want), but that's the nature of the dipole bass beast.
You might look into ripole config for this. Take up less space, create lower FS, should couple to the room similarly as OB. moray james had a couple threads going on that a couple weeks back. Lots of driver discussion.
The BiBs are a great thing, and have a lot in common, listening wise with OB, but they're going in a different direction (less driver, more cabinet).
Kensai
You know what, I'm totally sorry about that. I've been discussing this subject on several different forums and I thought I had posted the link below on this thread as well. Obviously, I didn't! 
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=264-347&DID=7
Anyway, I wantd to get some input from you guys about using this Selenium 18" driver for the dipoles instead of the many different 15" drivers. All of the specs are slightly better, Freq Resp: 35-3000Hz, Fs: 33Hz, Xmax: 3.75. The only thing that's down a little is the Qts, which is 0.45.
I figured since I have all of those specs working for me except the Qts, with a little bit of EQ'ing, I could possibly get better results, especially in the bass (between 30-50Hz) and even a little more kick in the upper bass.
So, what do you all think?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=264-347&DID=7
Anyway, I wantd to get some input from you guys about using this Selenium 18" driver for the dipoles instead of the many different 15" drivers. All of the specs are slightly better, Freq Resp: 35-3000Hz, Fs: 33Hz, Xmax: 3.75. The only thing that's down a little is the Qts, which is 0.45.
I figured since I have all of those specs working for me except the Qts, with a little bit of EQ'ing, I could possibly get better results, especially in the bass (between 30-50Hz) and even a little more kick in the upper bass.
So, what do you all think?
look at these...
Cant beat the price to experiment with and lots of xmax. Would work great in a ripole or w dipole even ob. Regards moray james.
http://www.mach5audio.com/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=c7f713c07850906dc94eeb788dd9d5b3
Cant beat the price to experiment with and lots of xmax. Would work great in a ripole or w dipole even ob. Regards moray james.
http://www.mach5audio.com/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=c7f713c07850906dc94eeb788dd9d5b3
guess that depends on what you want...
The dual coil versions can be run with a single coil to approx. double the Qts. The single coil 18 inch run in a Ripole or "W" frame dipole would be fine as is OB would require some EQ. 9mm xmax on a couple of 18's is a lot if air my friend. Regards Moray James.
The dual coil versions can be run with a single coil to approx. double the Qts. The single coil 18 inch run in a Ripole or "W" frame dipole would be fine as is OB would require some EQ. 9mm xmax on a couple of 18's is a lot if air my friend. Regards Moray James.
Re: guess that depends on what you want...
How do you mean that about the DVC ran as a SVC? As in wiring them together in series? If that's the case, were would that put the Qts?
You are right, those prices are very good, though.
But remember, I'm going to be using these all the way up to 600Hz. If these drivers are in fact "subwoofers", then they are probably rolled off below 500Hz. Unfortunately, the site doesn't give the freq resp of those drivers at all, so I have no idea what top end they are capable of.
moray james said:
How do you mean that about the DVC ran as a SVC? As in wiring them together in series? If that's the case, were would that put the Qts?
You are right, those prices are very good, though.
But remember, I'm going to be using these all the way up to 600Hz. If these drivers are in fact "subwoofers", then they are probably rolled off below 500Hz. Unfortunately, the site doesn't give the freq resp of those drivers at all, so I have no idea what top end they are capable of.
I have a buddy in California how has build a lot of OB stuff. He has a pair of OBs with 2 Eminence 18s (going opposite directions) a Beta 12LTA for the mid and a big dome tweeter. That's a lot of speaker!
You could skip the 12" and dome and use your 511 horn instead. I'll see if I can dig up a photo of his dipoles.
You could skip the 12" and dome and use your 511 horn instead. I'll see if I can dig up a photo of his dipoles.
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