There are some measurements of my Lowther drivers under my Lowhter ML TL project and also under the General Speaker Related Articles page. Not all of the ones you are looking for but some, measurements of Lowthers are hard to find on the Internet. Typical Lowther users are not into measurements.
No wonder so many of them are unhappy.
Given that 90% of the Lowther drivers appear to have an Fs considerably higher than is claimed, to say nothing of the other differences, one wonders if that's a primary reason for the constant fiddling with cabinets -they designed them to the published specs (one assumes), and unknowingly have a mis-match.
Given that 90% of the Lowther drivers appear to have an Fs considerably higher than is claimed, to say nothing of the other differences, one wonders if that's a primary reason for the constant fiddling with cabinets -they designed them to the published specs (one assumes), and unknowingly have a mis-match.
MJK said:
Now why does that not entirely surprise me?
Frankly, I suspected as much, but I didn't have the direct evidence, or not as much at any rate. On the up side, if you're hearing from them regularly Martin, that's a positive sign that they know they've taken the wrong approach in the past, so they should be able to move forward now.
I hear from them directly. I offer them a few pieces of advice. Some try it reluctantly and are usually happy, but most ignore what I offer because it is not the purist approach. They try something else. I hear from them again and the cycle repeats. Lowther owners have to be the most unhappy audiophiles I have ever encountered. Constantly tweaking to try and fix a shouty system response.
And the most common response I hear back is "I can't add a passive circuit, that will suck the life out of the music". To which I ask "Are you happy with the overly bright presentation you are hearing right now?".
They almost never try adding a circuit even though it is inexpensive and completely reversible at which point we reach a stalemate. They go off and continue swapping speaker cables (really series resistance and dollars) and tube amps (more series resistance and bigger dollars) in seach of the holy grail combination. At some point they convince themselves some combination and dollars spent sounds great.
They almost never try adding a circuit even though it is inexpensive and completely reversible at which point we reach a stalemate. They go off and continue swapping speaker cables (really series resistance and dollars) and tube amps (more series resistance and bigger dollars) in seach of the holy grail combination. At some point they convince themselves some combination and dollars spent sounds great.
Ah, but Martin, Bob, you forget that adding an inductor and resistor in parallel with the driver will have terrible consequences. It will sound 'different'. It will have bass for example. Shocking. Truly shocking. If you carry on in that reckless, Jacobin, democratic way you'll put all the snake-oil cable merchants out of business, and actually improve people's enjoyment of audio. We can't possibly have that.
Of course, they could also try designing a decent horn specifically for their drivers in the first place, rather than coming up with a cabinet, plonking the drivers in and hoping for the best. Like the circuit, that too, might be a little too obvious.
Scott
Of course, they could also try designing a decent horn specifically for their drivers in the first place, rather than coming up with a cabinet, plonking the drivers in and hoping for the best. Like the circuit, that too, might be a little too obvious.
Scott
MJK said:
To some extent that is correct (..single biggest prob. IMO with passive crossovers is the use of commonly available resistors).
I think you could make them happy (and make yourself happy as well) marketing a good "purist" ACTIVE filter.. Black box with a 30 day money back offer that does not require any DIY on their part - THAT should sell well.
Lowther meas.
on my side are a lot of Lowther measurements
of Lowther and AN8", B200, Fe206E,
Manger, Jordan JX92
My listening experience over 26 years with
Lowther shows,
today to expensive for the sound,
less max. SPL than Navi-Membrans,
and a bad 10 kHz peak listenable,
and shown on the measurements.
search the blue "measurements" links.
Fagott, Tuba,Basstuba, Saxophon,
Trumpet, Schalmei, Horn-SAT
http://www.hm-moreart.de/30.htm
on my side are a lot of Lowther measurements
of Lowther and AN8", B200, Fe206E,
Manger, Jordan JX92
My listening experience over 26 years with
Lowther shows,
today to expensive for the sound,
less max. SPL than Navi-Membrans,
and a bad 10 kHz peak listenable,
and shown on the measurements.
search the blue "measurements" links.
Fagott, Tuba,Basstuba, Saxophon,
Trumpet, Schalmei, Horn-SAT
http://www.hm-moreart.de/30.htm
Attachments
Have you ever measured the complex frequency dependent impedance of a common sand cast resistor and some of the higher priced audiophile resistors?
From the curves and from listening, to my ears there is not a significant difference. I believe that any difference heard between two resistors is more a function of a small difference in the absolute values (6.9 ohms for one vs 7.0 ohms for the other for example) then some inherent performance difference due to the construction. None of the resistors I measured showed any signs of inductance. The response was almost perfectly constant with frequency and exhibited essentially zero phase, I don't know how much closer to ideal performance they could approach. I think that the bigger source of problems is in the joints of the interconnects getting from the amp's output terminals to the driver's input terminals. As for multiway systems the difference in the driver types, the positions on the baffle, and just the summing of two independent sources is probably a bigger issue then small differences between two resistors.
Since we are getting dangerously close to igniting a flame war, let me supply the gasoline:
Let's take a SET with some serious second order distortion and connect it to a driver with a seriously rising frequency response. We can't insert any passive components because that would interfere with the purity of the sound off of the vinyl to your ears.
Even your cat is annoyed by the sound, but hey! It's pure.
To Scottmoose: Of course you are right that there are mechanical means of correcting these things, such as horn enclosures, but that's not where the discussion is coming from. This is all based on resonant enclosures.
Bob
Let's take a SET with some serious second order distortion and connect it to a driver with a seriously rising frequency response. We can't insert any passive components because that would interfere with the purity of the sound off of the vinyl to your ears.
Even your cat is annoyed by the sound, but hey! It's pure.
To Scottmoose: Of course you are right that there are mechanical means of correcting these things, such as horn enclosures, but that's not where the discussion is coming from. This is all based on resonant enclosures.
Bob
not entirely true
I realy must object here. When I stayed at my friends place were we were building front horn for "at the time" lousy shouting FE206E (because was just put in the big BR box) we were experimenting also with all kind of FR drivers, especially sigma 108 and eminence 12lt and some german fullrangers (Saba, oval drivers, I think). After the hard work of course.There is much to do if you want to have plastic front horn done right. And the story goes: have a very good source with very high resolution, very good battery powered two monoblock with the most simple design ever saw (I am not into tubes so I do not know the design) - I think there was just a small coil, battery for bias and maybe a resistor with a cap- and you drive a good fullranger like sigma 108 with it and you have a live sounding event in your big room. Put anykind of resistor or cap between the signal coming from the amps and you will here:smaller soundstage, some grain will be added, shrinken vocal with less flesh and air around them etc... And that was done with oilc caps and god knows what all kinds of other stuff he put in (he was collecting the best caps and resistors for a while so he could experiment with them in his CDP to gain the sound he wanted) He did that for me as I had some idea how to release some of the heavy signal (bass) from sigmas so they would sing with more air and more unstrained and more.. nothing! It was not true at all. You cut the fullranger with horn, leave the caps and resistor away. If they still shout, scream or make you unhappy, buy another speaker there are plenty. You will lose something (efficiency with lowthers for example, but hey buy then sigmas and add a tweeter) and gain much more - you could even listen to music for a change...
They have right in a way so - you suck abit of life from them but then again you gain in yours - you can listen to the music again, right? So in a way you have right they have right, but the choice is theirs...
!!
T
I realy must object here. When I stayed at my friends place were we were building front horn for "at the time" lousy shouting FE206E (because was just put in the big BR box) we were experimenting also with all kind of FR drivers, especially sigma 108 and eminence 12lt and some german fullrangers (Saba, oval drivers, I think). After the hard work of course.There is much to do if you want to have plastic front horn done right. And the story goes: have a very good source with very high resolution, very good battery powered two monoblock with the most simple design ever saw (I am not into tubes so I do not know the design) - I think there was just a small coil, battery for bias and maybe a resistor with a cap- and you drive a good fullranger like sigma 108 with it and you have a live sounding event in your big room. Put anykind of resistor or cap between the signal coming from the amps and you will here:smaller soundstage, some grain will be added, shrinken vocal with less flesh and air around them etc... And that was done with oilc caps and god knows what all kinds of other stuff he put in (he was collecting the best caps and resistors for a while so he could experiment with them in his CDP to gain the sound he wanted) He did that for me as I had some idea how to release some of the heavy signal (bass) from sigmas so they would sing with more air and more unstrained and more.. nothing! It was not true at all. You cut the fullranger with horn, leave the caps and resistor away. If they still shout, scream or make you unhappy, buy another speaker there are plenty. You will lose something (efficiency with lowthers for example, but hey buy then sigmas and add a tweeter) and gain much more - you could even listen to music for a change...
They have right in a way so - you suck abit of life from them but then again you gain in yours - you can listen to the music again, right? So in a way you have right they have right, but the choice is theirs...
!!
T
T,
How do you know if the passive component is causing the degradation in sound or if it is the inability of the amp to supply a quality signal to the new load presented by the speaker and the passive component(s)? Could the combination of a different impedance interacting with the amp cause the problem? I believe that a significant number of problems associated and reported with passive BSC filters and low powered SET amps sucking the life out of the music are the amp running out of gas and being unable to drive the higher/different impedance.
How do you know if the passive component is causing the degradation in sound or if it is the inability of the amp to supply a quality signal to the new load presented by the speaker and the passive component(s)? Could the combination of a different impedance interacting with the amp cause the problem? I believe that a significant number of problems associated and reported with passive BSC filters and low powered SET amps sucking the life out of the music are the amp running out of gas and being unable to drive the higher/different impedance.
MJK said:
I don't want to "put this back on you" (so to speak), but I'm afraid that is effectivly what I'll suggest.
(Note though that I was not suggesting a difference between most commercially available resistors.)
Try winding your own resistors (and counter-wind to reduce inductance).. OR try designing a filter that relies solely on the resistance of good quality air core inductors. THEN listen for a difference. (..obviously in this case we are talking about relativly small ohm values with copper wire OR silver.)
Bob Brines said:
I agree with everything you and Martin commented upon Bob. My reference to horns was as per my commets earlier in the thread & were there simply because that's what 99.9% of Lowther owners tend to build / be interested in; it was intended to be a side issue.
On the subject of BSC, I constantly advise people with FR drivers in resonant cabinets to use them if they want decent performanace. If they choose not to, and dislike the sound, that's their problem. If I can add a little additional petrol to the mix, isn't it interesting that most fancy components are considerably less consistant in measured performance than their cheaper counterparts?
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