hi all!
i posted my questions on the loudspeakers section,
but i believe that this little project will end up beeing a full range one ...
I need to find quick ( this week ) drivers for a small project, for a friend
he will be using this setup for home theater and gaming
priorities are :
- look ( unfortunatly )
- efficiency ( 75~W amp )
- will be used on a baffle on the wall
with a closet beeing the back ( closed by a door)
I wanted to use 3 to 4 drivers per side
for both looks and sensitivity ( he is almost deaf up to me
)
Need to be available in canada or usa ( with quick shipping )
total driver price budget is 500$ CAD ~a pprox
please advise as i do not have any experience at all with full range drivers
also, a powered sub will be used for 80hz and lower frequency fill up
Most important spectrum part is voice and mid bass
thanks much!
i posted my questions on the loudspeakers section,
but i believe that this little project will end up beeing a full range one ...
I need to find quick ( this week ) drivers for a small project, for a friend
he will be using this setup for home theater and gaming
priorities are :
- look ( unfortunatly )
- efficiency ( 75~W amp )
- will be used on a baffle on the wall
with a closet beeing the back ( closed by a door)
I wanted to use 3 to 4 drivers per side
for both looks and sensitivity ( he is almost deaf up to me
)Need to be available in canada or usa ( with quick shipping )
total driver price budget is 500$ CAD ~a pprox
please advise as i do not have any experience at all with full range drivers
also, a powered sub will be used for 80hz and lower frequency fill up
Most important spectrum part is voice and mid bass
thanks much!
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/css.html
Nice drivers, but beware using more than 1 FR unit on the same baffle or you'll get savage comb-filtering and major attenuation of the HF.
Nice drivers, but beware using more than 1 FR unit on the same baffle or you'll get savage comb-filtering and major attenuation of the HF.
what about the FOSTEX ?
i thought that the fostex were the hot full range drivers!!
solen.ca has a lot of the fostex driver ..
the look of them isn't woa ..but i could manage with that
if i take into account the 90db+ effeciency!
i will have to do with the comb and HF attenuation
i have seriously limited space, and it needs to be IN the wall
and then it needs to be quite loud in that big room ..neway
looking at the shiva+amp kit for the sub on CSS
i thought that the fostex were the hot full range drivers!!
solen.ca has a lot of the fostex driver ..
the look of them isn't woa ..but i could manage with that
if i take into account the 90db+ effeciency!
i will have to do with the comb and HF attenuation
i have seriously limited space, and it needs to be IN the wall
and then it needs to be quite loud in that big room ..neway
looking at the shiva+amp kit for the sub on CSS
You could always go for a 5 driver bessel array to obtain an even polar response. (..google "bessel array" for more info.)
IF you can do without much effiencey, but DO have more power to use then consider this driver in a 5 driver bessel array:
Aurasound NS3-193-8A
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=5258007.29126&pid=2038
Tested by member Zaph here:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/minitest/all.html
Alternativly (much more eff.), perhaps 4-5 fostex ff125K in a line array. Its rising response will help counter the rising midrange that the array will have. NOTE however that it will still suffer from comb filtering, but that shouldn't start getting "bad" until about 8 kHz or more.
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=2607350.6137&pid=333
IF you can do without much effiencey, but DO have more power to use then consider this driver in a 5 driver bessel array:
Aurasound NS3-193-8A
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=5258007.29126&pid=2038
Tested by member Zaph here:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/minitest/all.html
Alternativly (much more eff.), perhaps 4-5 fostex ff125K in a line array. Its rising response will help counter the rising midrange that the array will have. NOTE however that it will still suffer from comb filtering, but that shouldn't start getting "bad" until about 8 kHz or more.
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=2607350.6137&pid=333
What is the content of the closet?
And is it fully closed or (slightly) vented.
May be a better idea to go with filtering a few of the speakers to overcome the comb-filtering effect. (filter 3 above aprox.500hz and 1 fullrange...)
Why several small speakers, it will be louder maybe, but one big one with 1 small one will probably sound better, be just as or more efficient and cheaper to fit in a large closet.
Extra amplification could be helpfull too, and doesn't have to cost much. You have the advantage to do filtering very cheap and easy and win alot on sound pressure level.
If you are handy with a soldering iron, look at the following:
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
http://www.41hz.com
http://www.autocostruire.com
http://www.audiodigit.com
And I don't know about the looks but:
http://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/text.php?s=read&id=90
This speaker is extremely efficient and is ideal to combine with one or two larger bass speakers..
Hope this is a bit helpfull to you jinMTVT...
And is it fully closed or (slightly) vented.
May be a better idea to go with filtering a few of the speakers to overcome the comb-filtering effect. (filter 3 above aprox.500hz and 1 fullrange...)
Why several small speakers, it will be louder maybe, but one big one with 1 small one will probably sound better, be just as or more efficient and cheaper to fit in a large closet.
Extra amplification could be helpfull too, and doesn't have to cost much. You have the advantage to do filtering very cheap and easy and win alot on sound pressure level.
If you are handy with a soldering iron, look at the following:
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
http://www.41hz.com
http://www.autocostruire.com
http://www.audiodigit.com
And I don't know about the looks but:
http://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/text.php?s=read&id=90
This speaker is extremely efficient and is ideal to combine with one or two larger bass speakers..
Hope this is a bit helpfull to you jinMTVT...
Ok
i am seriously looking at the Fostex FF125K 4.5” FULL RANGE
it's cheap ( 55$ each at solen )
could probably place 5 of each on each side ?
what do you guys think ?
maybe 4 each side would be enough ?
Dave what do you think about 4 of theese on each side for a simple setup
and a shiva + 300W kit for bottom support?
the 4.5" drivers would allow me to have a not too wide
front baffle ..and the colors would fit nicely on their wall i think!!!
i am seriously looking at the Fostex FF125K 4.5” FULL RANGE
it's cheap ( 55$ each at solen )
could probably place 5 of each on each side ?
what do you guys think ?
maybe 4 each side would be enough ?
Dave what do you think about 4 of theese on each side for a simple setup
and a shiva + 300W kit for bottom support?
the 4.5" drivers would allow me to have a not too wide
front baffle ..and the colors would fit nicely on their wall i think!!!
Ok
i am seriously looking at the Fostex FF125K 4.5” FULL RANGE
it's cheap ( 55$ each at solen )
could probably place 5 of each on each side ?
what do you guys think ?
maybe 4 each side would be enough ?
Dave what do you think about 4 of theese on each side for a simple setup
and a shiva + 300W kit for bottom support?
the 4.5" drivers would allow me to have a not too wide
front baffle ..and the colors would fit nicely on their wall i think!!!
i am seriously looking at the Fostex FF125K 4.5” FULL RANGE
it's cheap ( 55$ each at solen )
could probably place 5 of each on each side ?
what do you guys think ?
maybe 4 each side would be enough ?
Dave what do you think about 4 of theese on each side for a simple setup
and a shiva + 300W kit for bottom support?
the 4.5" drivers would allow me to have a not too wide
front baffle ..and the colors would fit nicely on their wall i think!!!
use the aprox 75 watt amp for 1 driver each side and the 300 watt amp filtered above say 300-500hz for the other drivers and it'll sound great I think....
And as I placed a link for before, filtering can be quite simple and cheap, resistor in series, cap parallel in the line feed to the 300 watt amp and you're there! That's what I did and I'm quite satisfied...
marchand(high-end brand) uses similar technique in:
http://www.marchandelec.com/xm46.html
And as I placed a link for before, filtering can be quite simple and cheap, resistor in series, cap parallel in the line feed to the 300 watt amp and you're there! That's what I did and I'm quite satisfied...
marchand(high-end brand) uses similar technique in:
http://www.marchandelec.com/xm46.html
this is a bit too much for this project
but PLEASE
do instruct me !!
Please give me more details on the filtering method
you are pointing to ..
i do not have nay knowledge about that,
and what it should do ??
is this used when using drivers in arrays ?
this is for limiting comb filtering effects?
If you could suggest anything ..
i will probably buy 8 Fostex drivers
as their efficiency is reasonnably ( 92db )
and the look /price is there also
what could i do to enhanced?
i have no time for custom amplification
i will either use my Bryston 2B that i will sell to them
OR a good quality receiver amplification
( probably in the 75W/channel also )
thought i'd prefer the Bryston ( could buy a less expensive receiver , be at the same total $$ and have way better sonics from the Bryston .. )
please advise ...
but PLEASE
do instruct me !!
Please give me more details on the filtering method
you are pointing to ..
i do not have nay knowledge about that,
and what it should do ??
is this used when using drivers in arrays ?
this is for limiting comb filtering effects?
If you could suggest anything ..
i will probably buy 8 Fostex drivers
as their efficiency is reasonnably ( 92db )
and the look /price is there also
what could i do to enhanced?
i have no time for custom amplification
i will either use my Bryston 2B that i will sell to them
OR a good quality receiver amplification
( probably in the 75W/channel also )
thought i'd prefer the Bryston ( could buy a less expensive receiver , be at the same total $$ and have way better sonics from the Bryston .. )
please advise ...
I thought you allready had the receiver, the method of filtering I suggested requires 4 channels of amplification to get stereo(bi-amped).
Two channels will be filtered (driving up to 300 to 500 hz, where comb filtering effects won't bother the soundquality much) and two won't be filtered at all driving in full range mode... so you get 3 drivers each side producing mainly bass, and one each side producing full spectrum.
I use an incredibly good sounding amp from audiodigit(4 times 50 watt cont. power) which is relatively cheap and built and tested(only needs to be installed in a box)
http://www.audiodigit.com/index.php?section=91
My filter consists out of 1 resistor in series(6.8k ohm) and one mkt capacitor(150nF) to ground to get a 6db/oct. slope at approx 250 hz.... larger values will generally lower cut-off freq. smaller values will make it higher...and since your speakers are very near to eachother 6 db slopes will work just fine...and the comment on amplifier impedance you don't have to account with very much, since you're doiong a custom job, buy a few values and experiment what sounds best to your taste....
This filter is between the source(or preamp) and the power amp... the link one more time:
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
To make it work this way you can also buy two stereo amps...
Or buy one new and use one you allready have or something, the bass driving amp doesn't have to be excellent quality as long as it has plenty of power...
Two channels will be filtered (driving up to 300 to 500 hz, where comb filtering effects won't bother the soundquality much) and two won't be filtered at all driving in full range mode... so you get 3 drivers each side producing mainly bass, and one each side producing full spectrum.
I use an incredibly good sounding amp from audiodigit(4 times 50 watt cont. power) which is relatively cheap and built and tested(only needs to be installed in a box)
http://www.audiodigit.com/index.php?section=91
My filter consists out of 1 resistor in series(6.8k ohm) and one mkt capacitor(150nF) to ground to get a 6db/oct. slope at approx 250 hz.... larger values will generally lower cut-off freq. smaller values will make it higher...and since your speakers are very near to eachother 6 db slopes will work just fine...and the comment on amplifier impedance you don't have to account with very much, since you're doiong a custom job, buy a few values and experiment what sounds best to your taste....
This filter is between the source(or preamp) and the power amp... the link one more time:
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
To make it work this way you can also buy two stereo amps...
Or buy one new and use one you allready have or something, the bass driving amp doesn't have to be excellent quality as long as it has plenty of power...
nice setup!
what kind of improvements to sound have you noticed with this method ?
have you done an AB testing for that method ?
do you think that it would be wise to do this from a
home thater receiver output ??
not sure that it would handle the load good,
but i'd need a receiver in wich we would use 4 outputs for the same signal ... ( i guess that pretty much all of em have quad stereo mode ..neway )
i am always amazed by the class-D advanced ...
this type of amp seriously brings affordable performance to any diy enthousiast!!!!!
what kind of improvements to sound have you noticed with this method ?
have you done an AB testing for that method ?
do you think that it would be wise to do this from a
home thater receiver output ??
not sure that it would handle the load good,
but i'd need a receiver in wich we would use 4 outputs for the same signal ... ( i guess that pretty much all of em have quad stereo mode ..neway )
i am always amazed by the class-D advanced ...
this type of amp seriously brings affordable performance to any diy enthousiast!!!!!
i called solen
they don't ahve enough fostex in stock for me
i was recommended a cheaper unit
smaller
but that seems more suited ( high qts of .88 )
for my application
VeraVox 3
P/N Size VC Type dB W Z Re Le Ce Fs Vas Qms Qes Qts Xmax Cutout
VERAVOX3 79mm 25mm Pape Cone 85 10 8 5.4 .17 5.6 107 1.1 7.2 1.0 .88 ±1 69
what do you guys think ?
the price is reallly good
could afford to pu ALOT
of those ..but it's only 85db efficient
is that high QTS good for that application ?
keep in mind that the setup would put all the drivers in and infinite baffle kinda way ...
the look sure is good enough neway!
they don't ahve enough fostex in stock for me
i was recommended a cheaper unit
smaller
but that seems more suited ( high qts of .88 )
for my application
VeraVox 3
P/N Size VC Type dB W Z Re Le Ce Fs Vas Qms Qes Qts Xmax Cutout
VERAVOX3 79mm 25mm Pape Cone 85 10 8 5.4 .17 5.6 107 1.1 7.2 1.0 .88 ±1 69
what do you guys think ?
the price is reallly good
could afford to pu ALOT
of those ..but it's only 85db efficient
is that high QTS good for that application ?
keep in mind that the setup would put all the drivers in and infinite baffle kinda way ...
the look sure is good enough neway!
you can use a surround receiver only when it has a 5.1 analog input section(with 6 rca-inputs for each channel) this way you could connect 3 stereo speaker pairs filtered as I explained, and maybe even let 4 drivers produce up to 150 hz, 3 up to say 500 hz and one full spectrum per channel...
The improvement in sound is that the speakers act better as a point-source, this will make the sound more accurate in placement, make the speakers not interfere in the higher frequenties(where they're not intended to on the same channel). Most of all, it will be more likely that phase and stereo-information as well as frequency behavior will be better spread throughout the whole room...
Did AB testing for 12 years working in a high-end audio shop, made hundreds of speakers and am working as an audio engineer for a broadcasting company now...
Must add that if you don't filter at all the sound produced will be very loud, but exaggerated in the mids and highs and with no accurate soundstaging whatsoever..
Perhaps don't read on If you don't want to cry(about having allready ordered the drivers). Vifa 10 bgs is probably the better choise in your case, also small but with pretty high Qt and high efficiency(and almost entirely flat response):
http://www.hifisound.de/oxid/oxid.p...1732611/VIFA 10 BGS 119_8 GLASFASER SHIELDED/
No, the veravox 3 is as I've read about it a solid investment...
"..but it's only 85db efficient"?
With every driver placed really close to eachother the sensitivity will rise a couple of db's!
Another thing beware of the maximum load(in ohms) the amp can handle indeed! Connecting two speakers in parallel makes the load oprox. twice as heavy in series aprox. half..You can overcome this by doing several series-parallel connections. Try getting an amp that can drive at least 4 ohms (or better: 2 ohms)...
"but i'd need a receiver in wich we would use 4 outputs for the same signal ..."
The same stereo signal, yes. Two left channels and two right, on each side one channel filtered out the mids and highs(thus will produce mainly bass). But as the filter I mentioned has to be before the poweramp(on the input..) every channel needs to have it's own analog(rca) input(!!). You can use two rca splitters from your stereo source or preamp, place the filter(resistor first in series, than the cap parallel) on two leads(one left and one right) and there you go!
Good luck on your build!
The improvement in sound is that the speakers act better as a point-source, this will make the sound more accurate in placement, make the speakers not interfere in the higher frequenties(where they're not intended to on the same channel). Most of all, it will be more likely that phase and stereo-information as well as frequency behavior will be better spread throughout the whole room...
Did AB testing for 12 years working in a high-end audio shop, made hundreds of speakers and am working as an audio engineer for a broadcasting company now...
Must add that if you don't filter at all the sound produced will be very loud, but exaggerated in the mids and highs and with no accurate soundstaging whatsoever..
Perhaps don't read on If you don't want to cry(about having allready ordered the drivers). Vifa 10 bgs is probably the better choise in your case, also small but with pretty high Qt and high efficiency(and almost entirely flat response):
http://www.hifisound.de/oxid/oxid.p...1732611/VIFA 10 BGS 119_8 GLASFASER SHIELDED/
No, the veravox 3 is as I've read about it a solid investment...
"..but it's only 85db efficient"?
With every driver placed really close to eachother the sensitivity will rise a couple of db's!
Another thing beware of the maximum load(in ohms) the amp can handle indeed! Connecting two speakers in parallel makes the load oprox. twice as heavy in series aprox. half..You can overcome this by doing several series-parallel connections. Try getting an amp that can drive at least 4 ohms (or better: 2 ohms)...
"but i'd need a receiver in wich we would use 4 outputs for the same signal ..."
The same stereo signal, yes. Two left channels and two right, on each side one channel filtered out the mids and highs(thus will produce mainly bass). But as the filter I mentioned has to be before the poweramp(on the input..) every channel needs to have it's own analog(rca) input(!!). You can use two rca splitters from your stereo source or preamp, place the filter(resistor first in series, than the cap parallel) on two leads(one left and one right) and there you go!
Good luck on your build!
thanks much again for the information
though i do not grasp all the whys of your explanation
i understand the principle
i already know that conentng 2 drivers in serie will double the load
i only use Bryston amplifiers
wich can handle almost 2ohm laods without trouble
but i am not sure anymore that we will be using the 2B for his system ... maybe a custom amp as you pointed or
the receiver amplification system ...
though i do not grasp all the whys of your explanation
i understand the principle
i already know that conentng 2 drivers in serie will double the load
i only use Bryston amplifiers
wich can handle almost 2ohm laods without trouble
but i am not sure anymore that we will be using the 2B for his system ... maybe a custom amp as you pointed or
the receiver amplification system ...
I could provide you with details , pictures (from thursday, since a friend from whom I can borrow a digital camera will be home from a holiday then) and most importantly I have a limited stock of aluminum cases(die cast!) that are suitable to bolt the chip directly to the case. This way you can get rid of the ugly heat sink it is provided with...
It measures aprox: 5x9.5x14.5 cm (2.25x4.75x7.25 inch)
Could send it to you...
For this amp:http://www.audiodigit.com/index.php?section=91
I really tortured this amp, shorted speaker outputs, shorted them to ground, connected 1 ohm electrostatic speakers to it(when operating on 12 volt) took it everywhere (in my car, to holidays) It's rugged as a rugby ball!
The amp is not very hard to power(batteries, ac or dc, it's all possible, not much amperes(/watts) required...
Can be operated from 10 to 27 volts DC and has an on-board powersupply, only add a single-ended tranformer(18volts AC, that can deliver 100 watts or more).
Now my ears have been spoiled with Mark Levinsons, Audio Research, Briston, or name it, this amp is soundquality-wise "in the upper region"(takes a long wile for it to break in though...355 hours by now..) as I would say, therefore I think it's a bargain..
And in "my case" you can throw it from a building and it would probably still work.
And you will have a lot of possibilities in connecting.
On 12 volts: 1ohm minimum.
On 27 volts: 3ohm minimum.
Parallelled outputs to double power.(you can ask a schematic at autocostruire.it(.com, or choose english language).
They even have an 8 channel version!
All built and tested boards.
But though it is pretty powerfull (plenty for me), 4 times 40 watts continous in 4 ohm on 27 volts, capable of 100 watt peaks(explains why it sounds so dynamic) if you want more power 41hz.com...
Though I don't think the veravox drivers can handle much more...
Let me know if you(anyone?) is interested?
It measures aprox: 5x9.5x14.5 cm (2.25x4.75x7.25 inch)
Could send it to you...
For this amp:http://www.audiodigit.com/index.php?section=91
I really tortured this amp, shorted speaker outputs, shorted them to ground, connected 1 ohm electrostatic speakers to it(when operating on 12 volt) took it everywhere (in my car, to holidays) It's rugged as a rugby ball!
The amp is not very hard to power(batteries, ac or dc, it's all possible, not much amperes(/watts) required...
Can be operated from 10 to 27 volts DC and has an on-board powersupply, only add a single-ended tranformer(18volts AC, that can deliver 100 watts or more).
Now my ears have been spoiled with Mark Levinsons, Audio Research, Briston, or name it, this amp is soundquality-wise "in the upper region"(takes a long wile for it to break in though...355 hours by now..) as I would say, therefore I think it's a bargain..
And in "my case" you can throw it from a building and it would probably still work.
And you will have a lot of possibilities in connecting.
On 12 volts: 1ohm minimum.
On 27 volts: 3ohm minimum.
Parallelled outputs to double power.(you can ask a schematic at autocostruire.it(.com, or choose english language).
They even have an 8 channel version!
All built and tested boards.
But though it is pretty powerfull (plenty for me), 4 times 40 watts continous in 4 ohm on 27 volts, capable of 100 watt peaks(explains why it sounds so dynamic) if you want more power 41hz.com...
Though I don't think the veravox drivers can handle much more...
Let me know if you(anyone?) is interested?
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