Just cant decide on a final design, wether to go for...
A coaxial-
-Like the Silver Iris (with crossover inc)
Or to go for a Full ranger crossed to a large woofer-
-Like a fostex or simmilar crossed to a 15" woofer
And must be-
-High efficiency
-Open Baffle
-Effortless in sound
-Passive bass (so no equalisation or active bass if possible!)
suppose i have £250 for the drivers, looking for somthing with expresive midrange, but an overall live, fun and exciting sound!
help!
A coaxial-
-Like the Silver Iris (with crossover inc)
Or to go for a Full ranger crossed to a large woofer-
-Like a fostex or simmilar crossed to a 15" woofer
And must be-
-High efficiency
-Open Baffle
-Effortless in sound
-Passive bass (so no equalisation or active bass if possible!)
suppose i have £250 for the drivers, looking for somthing with expresive midrange, but an overall live, fun and exciting sound!
help!
If those are your options, I would go with the SI.
I had hoped to do something similar to your second option. But, as I'm sure you've come to figure out, the requirements for the woofer are pretty onerous.
-- high efficiency (95db or better)
-- high qts (>1)
-- moderate fs (30-40)
-- one very large baffle
-- and, lastly, one monster coil (>20mh) to roll it off.
Not that it can't be done, but for me I decided that biamping would be too simple and straigtforward to dismiss.
Best of luck with your project.
Regards,
John
I had hoped to do something similar to your second option. But, as I'm sure you've come to figure out, the requirements for the woofer are pretty onerous.
-- high efficiency (95db or better)
-- high qts (>1)
-- moderate fs (30-40)
-- one very large baffle
-- and, lastly, one monster coil (>20mh) to roll it off.
Not that it can't be done, but for me I decided that biamping would be too simple and straigtforward to dismiss.
Best of luck with your project.
Regards,
John
Dark Star with Visaton B200 would be my first choice for cheap OB. It's frighteningly good by any standards.
Silver Iris would be next, but I gather Dave (P10) isn't sold on the XO, and he's usually right. No surprise -crossovers are a pain to get right and there are very few good ones.
Alternatively a decent 6 1/2in unit like the FF165K in a BIB, which is a spectacularly simple horn that somehow got it into its head that what it really, really wants to sound like is a Dark Star dipole. Except with a heck of a lot of bass. So it does. No kidding -I'm not the only one who's noticed this.
Silver Iris would be next, but I gather Dave (P10) isn't sold on the XO, and he's usually right. No surprise -crossovers are a pain to get right and there are very few good ones.
Alternatively a decent 6 1/2in unit like the FF165K in a BIB, which is a spectacularly simple horn that somehow got it into its head that what it really, really wants to sound like is a Dark Star dipole. Except with a heck of a lot of bass. So it does. No kidding -I'm not the only one who's noticed this.
yeah, i 'think' the SI's are my first choice at the moment, just because they are so cheap!
the only thing having never had any speaker with a cone diameter larger than 8", how is the midrange on the 15"s?
currently i am using my Tannoy DC1000 8" DC's in OB, and they are sounding miles better than when they were in boxes (where they were boring), and now they are the most fun speakers i have found!
also thinking of a dipole sub somewhere down the line....
and having limited experience with the FR125S, can a smallish (6 1/2") FR really rock?
the only thing having never had any speaker with a cone diameter larger than 8", how is the midrange on the 15"s?
currently i am using my Tannoy DC1000 8" DC's in OB, and they are sounding miles better than when they were in boxes (where they were boring), and now they are the most fun speakers i have found!
also thinking of a dipole sub somewhere down the line....
and having limited experience with the FR125S, can a smallish (6 1/2") FR really rock?
inrank said:
Look, you've been starting tons of threads, getting nowhere. No DIY design is gonna pop out and scream "yes, you must build me, I am perfect, you will love me forever". I suggest 2 things I would do in your shoes: (1) don't spen all that GBP250 at once, buy something cheaper to experiment with an alignment, or (2) spend that 250 on drivers with a Q suitable for multiple alignments, so you can rebuild in the future
thanks for all the reply's, in regards to different alignments, i am definatley going for OB, as i am off back to uni and i cant have big speakers as i have a small car to take it up and i also have rubbish woodworking skills, so a flat packed OB is the order of the day.
unless there is a really good boxed design that meets the criteria thats small, OB is the only way
unless there is a really good boxed design that meets the criteria thats small, OB is the only way
well , I'm back promoting OBs (again..)
and being pretty unabashed about it.
OBs , are in my opinion, something that I will work to never be without. Some believe that bass is not very good using a single driver in an open baffle. I beg to,, differ.
Altering the "JE Labs" OB as per my own experiences has provided what I consider good bass without the need for a sub. I used Oxford 12J4, (10 watt drivers from an old Allen organ, but also used in Fender "Bassman" and "Princeton" guitar amps). with my mods, I get real 30-ish Hz bass (only compared them to a known sub that gets to 32 Hz, and they didn't leave me wanting the sub). A little big at 31.5" X35.5 " for a dorm room , but easy to transport in knockdown form. If you build em , please centre the driver as per the instructions.
and being pretty unabashed about it.
OBs , are in my opinion, something that I will work to never be without. Some believe that bass is not very good using a single driver in an open baffle. I beg to,, differ.
Altering the "JE Labs" OB as per my own experiences has provided what I consider good bass without the need for a sub. I used Oxford 12J4, (10 watt drivers from an old Allen organ, but also used in Fender "Bassman" and "Princeton" guitar amps). with my mods, I get real 30-ish Hz bass (only compared them to a known sub that gets to 32 Hz, and they didn't leave me wanting the sub). A little big at 31.5" X35.5 " for a dorm room , but easy to transport in knockdown form. If you build em , please centre the driver as per the instructions.
Now there's a can of worms. Dark Star is more a thread than a specific design, started by my friend, fellow BIB enthusiast and frequent contributor to this board, Dan Mason.
Basically, it's about different ways of using the superb Visaton B200 on a variety of open baffles. The B200 is perfect for this app. It's got a Q in the 0.7 regions, making it an ideal choice, no whizzer (a good thing IMHO), an manilla (i.e hemp) cone, and build to withstand a direct hit from a 12in naval shell. The thread is now about as long as the BIB thread I started here. So information is not exactly lacking. Here's the original, which lurks in the Red Wine Audio circle on Audiocircle. http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?PHPSESSID=o32ludvgf416ln70p8vajv5394&topic=19253.0
FWIW, here's a swift 10 step way to create your own version of Dark Star. I've heard a couple of versions with various baffles, and for sheer musicallity, they're among the best FR systems I've heard.
1) Get some of whatever 4ft x 8ft material takes your fancy.
2) Rip the material into 6 sections -2 front pannels, two inner side panels and two outer side panels. Preferably make sure they are not the same width so you get an asymetric layout. A driver offset of about 1.6 is supposedly useful, though not vital.
3) Cut the holes for the driver.
4) Coat the rear of each panel with a thin layer of cork.
5) Veneer the front panels, should you so wish.
6) Attach the side panels to the front panel with piano hinges, so you can adjust and fold your Dark Star to your heart's content. If you can't afford or find piano hinges, door hinges will do the job fairly well.
7) Screw the driver in place, and attach the speaker wire.
8) Pour yourself a glass of whatever you fancy and listen. You can adjust the angle of the wings to tailor the sound to your taste, room and musical preferences -much better and more flexible than a fixed flat baffle, and so much more domestically acceptable.
9) Wonder how on Earth the high-end brigade gets away with charging for a sound so inferior to what you've jsut achieved for a couple of hours work and about $250US.
10) Laugh demoniacally.
Dan -hope that meets with your approval?
Best
Scott
Basically, it's about different ways of using the superb Visaton B200 on a variety of open baffles. The B200 is perfect for this app. It's got a Q in the 0.7 regions, making it an ideal choice, no whizzer (a good thing IMHO), an manilla (i.e hemp) cone, and build to withstand a direct hit from a 12in naval shell. The thread is now about as long as the BIB thread I started here. So information is not exactly lacking. Here's the original, which lurks in the Red Wine Audio circle on Audiocircle. http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?PHPSESSID=o32ludvgf416ln70p8vajv5394&topic=19253.0
FWIW, here's a swift 10 step way to create your own version of Dark Star. I've heard a couple of versions with various baffles, and for sheer musicallity, they're among the best FR systems I've heard.
1) Get some of whatever 4ft x 8ft material takes your fancy.
2) Rip the material into 6 sections -2 front pannels, two inner side panels and two outer side panels. Preferably make sure they are not the same width so you get an asymetric layout. A driver offset of about 1.6 is supposedly useful, though not vital.
3) Cut the holes for the driver.
4) Coat the rear of each panel with a thin layer of cork.
5) Veneer the front panels, should you so wish.
6) Attach the side panels to the front panel with piano hinges, so you can adjust and fold your Dark Star to your heart's content. If you can't afford or find piano hinges, door hinges will do the job fairly well.
7) Screw the driver in place, and attach the speaker wire.
8) Pour yourself a glass of whatever you fancy and listen. You can adjust the angle of the wings to tailor the sound to your taste, room and musical preferences -much better and more flexible than a fixed flat baffle, and so much more domestically acceptable.
9) Wonder how on Earth the high-end brigade gets away with charging for a sound so inferior to what you've jsut achieved for a couple of hours work and about $250US.
10) Laugh demoniacally.
Dan -hope that meets with your approval?
Best
Scott
They are very good indeed. Frighteningly good in fact. If you want bargin open baffle, this would be my choice any day of the week. 6moons have a quick review / commentry of the prototype pair of Omega OBs, which are Dark Star based, powered by Red Wine Audio amplification and sources. (Omega and RWA work in close co-operation)http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/roadtour5/roadtour5.html The finished versions will have the new Hemp OB driver currently being developed, primarily because Omega are affiliated with the company that builds them. The B200 remain a killer unit of course.
BTW, I'd try something like a 10in wide front panel, with another 10in panel for the short side and something like an 18in for the longer. Not the 'perfect' offset, nor the largest possible size, but aesthetically quite pleasing, and should still sound suitably jaw-dropping. High end open baffle for the price of a couple of weeks grocery shopping. MDF is fine for this application, and hardly breaks the bank. Either way, one sheet will probably be fine, initially at least... 
BTW, I'd try something like a 10in wide front panel, with another 10in panel for the short side and something like an 18in for the longer. Not the 'perfect' offset, nor the largest possible size, but aesthetically quite pleasing, and should still sound suitably jaw-dropping. High end open baffle for the price of a couple of weeks grocery shopping.
MDF is fine for this application, and hardly breaks the bank. Either way, one sheet will probably be fine, initially at least... hello scott,
since you know both, the b200 on open baffle and the 168es in a bib, perhaps you could give me an answer to the question: which of both speakers makes a drum more sound like a drum, which one has the more dynamic and explosive sound?
usually i do not listen to rock, but i would really like to know the answer.
regards
lilmik
since you know both, the b200 on open baffle and the 168es in a bib, perhaps you could give me an answer to the question: which of both speakers makes a drum more sound like a drum, which one has the more dynamic and explosive sound?
usually i do not listen to rock, but i would really like to know the answer.
regards
lilmik
When positioned correctly, the BIB. They go much lower, but bizzarely sound like dipoles in the LF (which they should not do, given the physics is just about the opposite of a dipole, but that's what they sound like). They almost pull off the same vanishing act open baffles do so well across the midrange, though perhaps the Dark Stars have a fractional edge from about 500Hz-1KHz. After that, there's nothing in it. Both are great.
Hi,
finalised them at weekend. For the lower frequencies, they will get help from the famous Schmackshorn. What should I say...sound is incredible HaHaHa.....
finalised them at weekend. For the lower frequencies, they will get help from the famous Schmackshorn. What should I say...sound is incredible
HaHaHa.....An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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