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Old 10th August 2006, 01:57 AM   #1
JandG is offline JandG  United States
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Default Instrument frequency range

I was researching this last night a found a chart that showed ever dang intrument I have ever heard of & incuding vocals..I was stunned, NOTHING important to me above about 2k,, actually not much over 1k,, only a organ was at 7k,, I seen nothing above that....I did this search wondering if I was truely missing anything in the top end when running rullrangers from about 100hz to what ever they max at.... from what I see there is absolutely nothing to be conserned about . If fact,,, what the heck does go above 7k.....? I seen nothing that did, nothing. So if one can get all of it , bieng in the real world that is, what is the reason for running super tweeter & tweeters crossed high, Not dissing it, I have never done it, but I am wondering why,,,If this chart speaks the truth, then I am at total ease with running full rangers without a helper at the top, but will use active bottom to about 120hz or so..cheap way out , but works for me.I did find this fasinating ..& rattled this BS to my wife all night, like she gives a sh...t wheather a Saprano is 1k or not....
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Old 10th August 2006, 02:06 AM   #2
Tim__x is offline Tim__x  Canada
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Almost every (physical) instrument that exists does emit energy reaching beyond 10k, just at ever decreasing amplitude.

Vocals, wind instruments, and strings especially produce high frequency components. Though, again at much lower levels than mid range components.

P.S. You may very well be perfectly happy without anything above a few K, many people are (though I'm not).
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Old 10th August 2006, 03:34 AM   #3
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default frequency range..

yup. Pretty much any and all instruments have overtones/undertones other than the "fundamental" frequencies or "characteristic" frequencies. That's what makes a Stradavarius a Stradavarius.

Ever listen to "electronic" drums versus the real thing? No comparison.

In part the reason why some manufacturers went to an Ultra wide bandwidth design for tweeters (super tweeters), and amplifiers (Matti Otala comes to mind here).
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Old 10th August 2006, 04:00 AM   #4
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you know - just because it is published bull, doesn't mean it ain't bull.

Cymbals extend probably beyond 20kHz - so does trumpet etc.
And I can monitor those things very clearly at my deq 2496 - which unfortunately stops display at20kHz - but you can clearly see that nothing stops like a brickwall at 20 kHz - maybe on cd, but definetely not on record.

And I can clearly hear if information gets cut off at 12 or 16kHz - as in satellite radio, even if I can hear discrete tones only to about 14kHz.

There is info out there that shows that some harmonics of acoustic instruments extend to way above 20 kHz

http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm
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Old 10th August 2006, 04:47 AM   #5
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What you were looking at is a chart of the instruments FUNDAMENTAL tone. The harmonics are then multiples of these fundamentals all the way up WELL past 20khz (though theoretically we only proscess those below 20Khz), this harmonic structure is so significant that in many cases removal of the fundamental tone still leaves a signal that the mind can regenerate.

I have even listened to some auditory training programs (for children with auditory development problems) that shelve out EVERYTHING below 6K in classical music and then futz with whats going on to get the child to pay attention. You could still easily identify the melody.

Sean
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Old 10th August 2006, 04:51 AM   #6
JandG is offline JandG  United States
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Default Intresting & very complicated subject I see..

I am just learning these technical areas & see lotsa of subjective info, I know I will let my ears tell me & in time with these fullrangers without help on top will tell me. I have an idea that something is missing & have to decide if it is worth the trade off, all in fun for me & have to be able to boogie.
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Old 10th August 2006, 03:38 PM   #7
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I love my super tweeter!
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Old 12th August 2006, 08:48 PM   #8
JandG is offline JandG  United States
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Default I am trying a helper on top....

I am experimenting with thelper tweeter on top,, I only have a pair of Vifa D27TG-45's on hand & ran thru a bunch of cap values, settling on .22uf Auricap, a/b with & without...using test clips, I can hear a obviouse improvement on top, with little messing with the very nice midarnge I got going on, so I have more tweeters on the way to test ribbon's etc.....If I can get a match using a cap only then I will definatley goethis route. Also I used a contractors compression plug to completelly plug the 3" ports on my fe167e cabs,, set sub @ 150 & also slightly stuffed the ports in the subs. result is after 1 day is very promiseing...I can allready see my self going B200 in OB w a LCY-100K's for help & of course the subs..I am sure to get kicked off the bourd.......Just having fun & do hear the justification for helper crossed very high..off topic, kinda...
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Old 13th August 2006, 10:52 PM   #9
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Before going all out to find out what goes above 20Khz, you might acually want to get your hearing tested.

Also, what media play back do you have? I read time and time again that most people can't even hear above 20Khz. When I brought home a SACD player, my brother n law said that I wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between CD and SACD. I still don't think he gets it, but anyway, he tested my hearing with some Sennheiser headphones (not sure on the software he was using to create tones with) and it turned out that I could hear up in the 24Khz range. Also, the washer was going and lots of people where in the house, so I had to deal with a lot of background noise and the headphones were open air, not sealed, so who knows what I can really hear. It wasn't even in a silent room. I'll admit, I could only hear the presence of something and the tone started to go away, but I did raise the correct hand during the test.

My current main speakers are rated from 35Hz to 27Khz and playing back some of the SACDs results in things I've never heard before. I've acually hurt my ears playing back Beethoven 9th at what I would normaly consitor normal playback levels. Even at 1/4 volume on the amp, you gotta watch it, or you can acually dammage your hearing. You acually have to be carefull playing back vinal and SACD and I guess DVD-A as you can dammage your ears compared to a standard CD that is cut off at 20Khz.

My wife dragged me kicking and screaming to a concert last night. Okay, not really, but I wasn't too thrilled. It was a live concert to video game music. It was acually called video games live. The first half I acually enjoyed as the http://www.indyorch.org/ played live music to frogger, donkey kong, tempest, and lots of other classics. The only problem, every insturment had a mic on it and everything went through a sound processor and amplified and the concert was too loud. By the time intermission hit, I had a POUNDING headach. I acually had to sit out the 2nd half in the lobby. Even then, I could hear it all as well as I wanted too. I must have over sensitive ears or something. The concert acually hurt my ears and we were on the 1st mezzanaine, so we were not too close or anything. I was the only one who got a headach from it. They kind of went from old games to new games and for some reason, they stuck Mario's music in the 2nd half of the concert. That was the only part I wish I had heard inside. I couldn't relate to anything else in the 2nd half of the concert.
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Old 13th August 2006, 11:32 PM   #10
Lucius is offline Lucius  United States
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Quote:
What you were looking at is a chart of the instruments FUNDAMENTAL tone. The harmonics are then multiples of these fundamentals all the way up WELL past 20khz (though theoretically we only proscess those below 20Khz), this harmonic structure is so significant that in many cases removal of the fundamental tone still leaves a signal that the mind can regenerate.
I presume(I hope) you can hear the harmonics of a 20khz note at 10khz & perhaps
some people who say they can hear up to 20khz are actually hearing the 10khz
harmonic. Being middle aged I can't hear above 13khz otherwise.

Lucius
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