Where does "fullrange" end and "two-way" start? - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Full Range

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 25th June 2006, 09:56 PM   #1
KCHANG is online now KCHANG  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Default Where does "fullrange" end and "two-way" start?

Hi all,

While reading Jim Griffin's thread on his Jordan in MTML with a ribbon, I could not help but notice that the crossover is at 3000Hz, which pretty much makes the speaker a standard two-way except perhaps for the MTML loading that was originally developed for getting some bass out of fullrange drivers. There is no reason why the MTML loading could not be used with a mid/bass driver, and I'd suspect that there are many good mid/bass drivers out there that could be used to get as good or better bass response than the Jordan and are capable of good midrage behavior for the 3KHz crossover point. If that is the case, one should be able to implement the MTML+ribbon design with a mid/bass driver to get as good or better results than using the Jordan, unless for some reasons the Jordan is just a better mid/bass driver than all the other mid-bass drivers available.

According to Jim, the Jordan MTML with ribbon sounds better than running the Jordan fullrange. Thus, such a design begs the question of why we even bother playing with expensive fullrange drivers, such as the Jordan, when a cone+tweeter two-way design with a 3KHz crossiver point sounds better. Are we fullranger-lovers going a full circle and back to where we started?

What do you think?

Kurt
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2006, 12:11 AM   #2
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
diyAudio Member
 
TerryO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle,Wash.
Default Re: Where does "fullrange" end and "two-way" start?

Quote:
Originally posted by KCHANG
Hi all,

Snip```````````

According to Jim, the Jordan MTML with ribbon sounds better than running the Jordan fullrange. Thus, such a design begs the question of why we even bother playing with expensive fullrange drivers, such as the Jordan, when a cone+tweeter two-way design with a 3KHz crossiver point sounds better. Are we fullranger-lovers going a full circle and back to where we started?

What do you think?

Kurt
Kurt,
I agree that 3000 is in standard 2-way territory and the only reason I can think of for such a low crossover point would be to allow a 1st order crossover and still maintain a decent C-T-C distance. I am not a fan of Jordan drivers and to tell the truth haven't heard any that I cared for. With ribbon tweeters it's much the same case IMHO, at least the "affordable" ones. I've heard many Aurum Cantus tweeters that didn't impress me at all, but until I heard the RAW Acoustic HT-3 speakers it never occurred to me what the problem may have been. The HT-3 is a three way and uses a 4th order crossover on the tweeter which is crossed over on the high side. This is probably the first time that I've heard a ribbon that lives up to it's reputation (BTW: the HT-3 is a great speaker!). My point is that I think that fullrange or extended range drivers are fine with ribbons if the ribbon is crossed over using high order crossovers outside the "critical" range which I consider to be somewhere between 3500 and4000Hz. Any lower, like many 2-ways, and the ribbons virtues are compromised and the fullrange drivers strengths are sacrificed.

The other valid choice is to use a tweeter as a filler driver to offset the onset ( there's a phrase for you!) of beaming or treble rolloff. A 1st order crossover works here and I would think that for frequencies above 7000Hz or so, that you can probably get away with it and not encounter too many regrets.
There are experts that disagree, and usually do, but this works for me.

Best Regards,
TerryO
__________________
"If you have to ask why, then you're probably on the right track."
quote from Terry Olson's DIYaudio Forum application
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2006, 12:28 AM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
jackinnj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Llanddewi Brefi, NJ
"two-way" means hermaphroditic
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2006, 12:32 AM   #4
BWRX is offline BWRX  United States
diyAudio Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Default Re: Where does "fullrange" end and "two-way" start?

Quote:
Originally posted by KCHANG
Thus, such a design begs the question of why we even bother playing with expensive fullrange drivers, such as the Jordan, when a cone+tweeter two-way design with a 3KHz crossiver point sounds better.
It's all about simplicity - lower cost, no crossover between the amp and the driver, phase coherency, closer to an ideal point source, no comb filtering, etc.

Some full range drivers (especially ones without a whizzer) just tend to sound congested when asked to reproduce frequencies up to 20kHz.
__________________
Brian
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2006, 01:53 AM   #5
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Tennessee
Kurt and Terry,

The Jordan with a ribbon design (either minimonitor or MLTL) was intended to help the JX92S above 3000 Hz where-in it starts to beam. The treble from the ribbon is smoother and more extended than the JX92S. However, crossing at 3000 Hz does maintain the magical coherency of the Jordan over the vocal frequency range. Now as I said you can live with the Jordan alone but don't listen to the ribbon version or you will want one of them.

Before deep sixing the Jordan JX92S for another driver, you really need to hear it in the MLTL configuration to hear its low end potential. In my opinion the CSS FR125S and WR125S don't have the high SPL output that the Jordan can do although they rival the JX92S on the bass extension side of the ledger. So I ask just what other extended range 5" class drivers can do what the Jordan does even with the crossover?

Not many 6 inch drivers can be crossed as high as 3000 Hz without some beaming. To cross lower you get into the critical vocal area. Now for the crossover to a tweeter one has to ask does the JX92S sound better above 3000 Hz than the A-C G2si ribbon tweeter?

Quite often a 'full range driver' winds up in a three way system as the user needs more bass so he adds a sub and then he realize the he is missing the highs so he adds a super tweeter. So it goes.

Jim
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2006, 05:38 AM   #6
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
diyAudio Member
 
TerryO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle,Wash.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Griffin
Kurt and Terry,

~~~~~~~~~~SNIP~~~~~~~~~

Not many 6 inch drivers can be crossed as high as 3000 Hz without some beaming. To cross lower you get into the critical vocal area. Now for the crossover to a tweeter one has to ask does the JX92S sound better above 3000 Hz than the A-C G2si ribbon tweeter?

Quite often a 'full range driver' winds up in a three way system as the user needs more bass so he adds a sub and then he realize the he is missing the highs so he adds a super tweeter. So it goes.

Jim
Jim,
As I haven't heard your Jordan/A-C combo, I really can't disagree, but my opinion based on those drivers, as used in the various systems that I have heard, still stands. The use of a "fullrange driver" or perhaps more realistically, a "wide range driver" in a three way system is, outside of a good horn system, about as good as it gets. I think we agree that staying outside of the 300 to 3000 or 3500Hz range with a crossover can yield an elegant solution if done with care.

Best Regards,
TerryO
__________________
"If you have to ask why, then you're probably on the right track."
quote from Terry Olson's DIYaudio Forum application
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2006, 08:33 AM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Stony Stratford
I agree that the magic of the jX92s is it's ability in the 80 - 3000 hz range, which covers 99% of 'music'. Outside this we are mainly dealing with sound effects and either non-directional sounds (at the low end) or extremely directional whistles and hisses which behave and sound very differently.

To illistrate the benefit of the Jordan in a 3-way I run it as the 'mid' range of the acclaimed AE evo 3 floorstander. This does not cross over at all but the tweeter comes in at 3000hz and runs in parallel with a dedicated bass unit below 300hz (also aluminium). The transformation from the original is unbelievable - the standard commercial speaker loses out in all types of music across the whole perceivable frequency range compared with the modified version. The silk domed tweeter seems to add something intangible to the top end, even with the jordan running full-range, however. The top end I find slightly coloured and beamed without it.

Asking a speaker to perform as good as the Jordan between the extreme ranges it does is an extremely demanding requirement and I am always amazed at how well it does it. A dedicated mid-range would claim to perform from 300 to 3000 but I have never heard one that does it so convincingly, I suspect that no commercially available dedicated mid-range speaker will perform as well as a full range outside it's narrow sweet-spot of a few hundred hz.
__________________
Keladrin
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2006, 09:33 AM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: U.S.A.
Default Re: Re: Where does "fullrange" end and "two-way" start?

Quote:
Originally posted by BWRX


It's all about simplicity - lower cost, no crossover between the amp and the driver, phase coherency, closer to an ideal point source, no comb filtering, etc.

Some full range drivers (especially ones without a whizzer) just tend to sound congested when asked to reproduce frequencies up to 20kHz.

Lower cost?!

JX92s, last i checked, costs about 360USD for a pair...

So, for about 360USD (we aren't factoring in the money spent on wood for the jordan system either) in drivers you could get 4 dayton RS125S, 2 RS28AS, the parts for a crossover, and a dead sexy box...AND to top it all off a small sub...

I have a lot of trouble believing that a large (5+ inches dia) "full range" speaker can reproduce 20khz, even 8khz, accurately.

Even adding a "super tweeter" and "rolling it in" with a cap effectively creates a 2 way that could easily be outperformed by cheaper "conventional" drivers...
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2006, 10:27 AM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Quote:
I have a lot of trouble believing that a large (5+ inches dia) "full range" speaker can reproduce 20khz, even 8khz, accurately.
Mine go higher and they are 8".

Regards

Charles
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2006, 03:16 PM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
Scottmoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
An interesting question. A side benefit of running a superlative quality FR driver like the Jordan of course is that it lacks the unpleasent break-up modes of many mid-bass units. So you have greater freedom with the crossover, and need less in the way of notch filters etc.
__________________
Community site www.frugal-horn.com Commercial site www.wodendesign.com
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What makes an amplifier "bright", "warm", or "neutral"? JohnS Solid State 51 13th December 2009 06:42 PM
What makes Nichicon "muse"/"for audio" caps different ? percy Parts 2 3rd October 2009 05:53 PM
"Void free" or "no core gaps" plywood rick57 Multi-Way 6 14th March 2007 01:09 PM
Some final pics of "Stacks" revisited and "Askew" with stand Andy G Multi-Way 2 3rd February 2005 06:07 AM
Anyone used Scan-Speak's "Flow Resistors" or "Aperiodic Vents"? Ignite Multi-Way 3 18th November 2001 08:42 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:42 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2