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Old 27th June 2006, 02:24 AM   #21
BWRX is offline BWRX  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by MJK
I do not believe a full range driver and a low powered tube amp can do the job. I do believe a full range driver, a correction circuit, and a high powered SS amp can get a lot closer then low powered tube or T amps.
Why do you think a SS amp could do any better than a class d amp? I can see where you're going with the high output impedance of a tube amp, but a class d amp is far different from a tube amp even though the low power T-amps have similar power output. Even so, a watt is a watt, and spl depends on how efficient your drivers are. If you can get to 90dB with 1W at low distortion levels then it shouldn't matter where the power comes from.

Quote:
Originally posted by MJK
Is a driver with a whizzer cone a full range driver? There is a mechanical crossover in place to transfer from the main cone to the whizzer cone, you can see it if you look closely on the impedance plot. What is the difference between a driver with a whizzer cone and a coaxial?
In short, it depends on your definitions of 'full range' and 'driver'. "Driver" is a singular noun so a driver with a whizzer cone just has 2 membranes that are physically connected on a single voice coil. A coaxial unit combines 2 drivers (2 separate voice coils) to cover the whole audio spectrum.
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Old 27th June 2006, 04:20 AM   #22
Bare is offline Bare  Canada
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A watt is a watt ?? Beginner.. is all I can politely say.

Whole Single Driver thing is, as noted a Myth... Lowthers are still y be inadequate tro the task'best of Breed' and these have.. proven.. over several decades to simply be inadequate to the purpose they are sold for.
This has always been 'underdog' territory, where individuals derive some perverse pleasure in going against what most others have long since discarded as a dead end road.
The tryany of non conformism seemingly lies heavy here.
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Old 27th June 2006, 05:25 AM   #23
BWRX is offline BWRX  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bare
A watt is a watt ?? Beginner.. is all I can politely say.

Whole Single Driver thing is, as noted a Myth... Lowthers are still y be inadequate tro the task'best of Breed' and these have.. proven.. over several decades to simply be inadequate to the purpose they are sold for.
This has always been 'underdog' territory, where individuals derive some perverse pleasure in going against what most others have long since discarded as a dead end road.
Beginner? Perhaps compared to some on here, and obviously to someone such as yourself whose sarcastically curt remark reeks of snobbery.

1W of class d power is capable of producing the same sound from a driver as 1W of class ab power as 1W of SE triode power but the way each does it is clearly different.

There are plenty of full range drivers out there that most people would say have proven to be more than adequate at doing what they were intended to do.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bare
The tryany of non conformism seemingly lies heavy here.
On the contrary, free thinking abounds and people choose to listen to what they think sounds best (and fits their budget!).
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Old 27th June 2006, 06:26 AM   #24
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bare
A watt is a watt ?? Beginner.. is all I can politely say.

Whole Single Driver thing is, as noted a Myth... Lowthers are still y be inadequate tro the task'best of Breed' and these have.. proven.. over several decades to simply be inadequate to the purpose they are sold for.
This has always been 'underdog' territory, where individuals derive some perverse pleasure in going against what most others have long since discarded as a dead end road.
The tryany of non conformism seemingly lies heavy here.

I have to agree that you certainly aren't putting your best foot forward. However...........

As for the question about watts, even experts disagree on many aspects of amplification. Perhaps you would be so kind as to share some of the specific insights garnered after so many years of experience.

I don't believe that the "Whole Single Driver thing is, as noted a Myth" any more than I think that:

"This has always been 'underdog' territory, where individuals derive some perverse pleasure in going against what most others have long since discarded as a dead end road.".

It's kind of like tube amps in the late 60's, the progressive elements switched over to transistors and later abandoned Vinyl as they proudly marched to the "New Jerusalem" of sound reproduction.

Finally you stated: "The tryany of non conformism seemingly lies heavy here."

I think that we're both in agreement, and "everyone knows", that the "freedom of absolute conformity" is what society needs in order to progress.

Best Regards,
TerryO
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Old 27th June 2006, 07:57 AM   #25
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Just to add fuel to the fire.
From my understanding Lowthers are very demanding drivers to use and can not be described as the ultimate Fullrange driver. I personnally think that the peak of Fullrange achievement was achieved back in the 60's when low powered Tube amps were still common. I'am thinking of many of the German drivers. I have a pair of oval Isophons which are in mass loaded voight pipes. They go down deep and powerful to probably about 30hz and could work without tweeters. I choose to tickle in a tweeter (Isophon Cone tweeter) at about 10kHz.
The only drawback is that they are physically big and they do beam slightly. They play louder than I can bare without breaking up.

Multi driver speakers need very careful modelling and optimisation to give of there best, then the components in the crossover need to be top quality and individually selected. I would hazard a guess that many of the diy multi-way speakers never quite match the challenge of this complex process and as such have more quirks than a well designed diy fullrange speaker. Put another way, fullrange projects are easier to get right than diy multi-ways.

These vintage of drivers were the absolute peak of speaker engineering and I think that modern fullrange drivers are only just getting to where they were a long time ago. I have found that 7-10Watts is more than adequate for these vintage drivers - which makes well designed tube amps easy. I have found that even relatively cheap drivers of this vintage can outperform modern drivers.

My ultimate conclusion would be that for the average DIYer (which most of us are) the road to Fullrange is a more satisfying and easier one.


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Old 27th June 2006, 08:41 AM   #26
Calvin is offline Calvin  Germany
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Hi,

even more fuel
Imo are Lowthers close to crap -some nice design ideas, yes, but a resultant speaker thats sonic virtues can just be used with very specific music. Anything aside that just is terrorizing the ears. Btw. could a driver with an upper bandwidth limit of ~10kHz really be called FR??
A far better sounding solution can be found with the AERs, but still even those lack when it comes to resolution from the upper-mid freq-range on as do all others FR-drivers.
I agree that You can get results easier with an full-range concept simply because of its simplicity (and honestly imo 95% of the DIYers lack the equipment as well as the knowledge to design a good multiple-driver speaker), but You still will not get excellent results, because of the severe limitations of dynamic FR-drivers. Imo each and every dynamic (so called) FR-driver needs a partner at the lower or the upper end to achieve real FR-bandwidth. The only consequent solution is imo to leave the dynamic path and look at other concepts of generating sound, for eg electrostats

jauu
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Old 27th June 2006, 10:20 AM   #27
Colin is offline Colin  United Kingdom
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Interestingly enough, Ted Jordan produced an electrostatic speaker back in the 1950s for Goodmans.

I don't think there is an 'ultimate' fullrange driver and you have to accept there are compromises and decide where your priorities lie. A recent demo of a £22k Linn system was educational - huge dynamics and depth of bass but to me it sounded flat. It was interesting that they were demonstrating it with rock musc and had to hunt around their CD collection when I asked to hear some acoustic music.

Using the Jordan in GM's MLTL, I get the midrange delicacy I want with good bass and treble for acoustic and symphonic music. It won't go as loud or as high as other systems and it definitely has it's own character in the treble. Comparing it with a two-way Jordan system, crossing at 500Hz and using the old JX53, the two-way went higher and was more delicate in the HF but lacked the holographic imaging of the JX92. So until I come across something better, I'll take the imaging over the smoother treble. (I haven't heard Jim's 92/ribbon combination - anyone here in the UK planning to build them?)

I'm sure Ted would be first to admit that the JX92 is a compromise as it's engineered in the real world. Ditto the Lowthers, which have a different set of criteria.
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Old 27th June 2006, 10:25 AM   #28
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Quote:
I don't think there is an 'ultimate' fullrange driver and you have to accept there are compromises and decide where your priorities lie.
There are not even ultimate multiway speakers around i.e. the ultimate loudspeaker simply doesn't exist.

Regards

Charles
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Old 27th June 2006, 10:57 AM   #29
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Damm, I thought I was building the ultimate speaker
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Old 27th June 2006, 11:27 AM   #30
MJK is offline MJK  United States
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The following quotes were selected because they expressed the sentiment of several posters and are not intended to single out any one individual.

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Why do you think a SS amp could do any better than a class d amp? I can see where you're going with the high output impedance of a tube amp, but a class d amp is far different from a tube amp even though the low power T-amps have similar power output. Even so, a watt is a watt, and spl depends on how efficient your drivers are. If you can get to 90dB with 1W at low distortion levels then it shouldn't matter where the power comes from.
Yes a watt is a watt and for a continuous signal a driver capable of 94 dB per watt at 1 m will produce the required output independent of amp type. But music is not a nice even continuous signal and a speaker is not a nice constant 8 ohm resistance.

I have analyzed several hybrid transmission line/back loaded horn designs over the past few months. Some of these designs are the best I have ever seen. But each has a similar impedence curve, huge multiple peaks approaching 40 to 80 ohms between 20 and 200 Hz. Each peak comes with a rapid phase shift. If you have an amp with 5 watts available into 8 ohms, how much of an impact on the music's dynamics is this going to play. It is not the average SPL, it is the ability of playing the dynamics where much higher short term bursts of power are required.

To draw an analogy, I look back at the range of cars I have owned in the past 30 years. The lowest powered car was a nice little Datsun (before they were Nissan) that got 35 mpg around town and 45 on the highway. Great little car, filled it once a month. The most powerful was a small SUV that could spin the rear wheels on dry pavement, drank gas and I had to fill it frequently. Both cars would do the speed limit all day long. But which one would you want to drive on a back road when trying to pass farmer Jones on his tractor pulling a hay wagon? No substitute for raw power.

In my opinion, if you are pairing a full range driver with a low powered tube or T amp you are making a huge compromise right out of the gate that you might not be able to overcome. Maybe this combination has the best pure midrange sound but the penalty will come trying to produce low bass. I believe that a lot of these amps roll off the bass below 100 Hz or just do not have the reserve power to produce the required transient bass against the high speaker system's impedance peaks.

Quote:
Imo are Lowthers close to **** -some nice design ideas, yes, but a resultant speaker thats sonic virtues can just be used with very specific music. Anything aside that just is terrorizing the ears. Btw. could a driver with an upper bandwidth limit of ~10kHz really be called FR??
Lowther owners are by far the most suffering full range driver users I have ever encountered. Reading the forums you see all kinds of wild enclosure designs attempting to extract decent bass performance. Then they add a sub to the system, why bother with the complex enclosure if you use a sub? You see people swapping amps and cables every few months in search of the magic recipe. Most people describe the results as shouty and ear fatiguing. I know because I have heard this effect in my own systems. But if you use a high powered SS amp, a correction circuit, and a simple ML TL enclosure I believe all of these issues are resolved. You have probably experienced the purists approach and not been impressed, all I can say is try the other approach and see what you think. You will be amazed at the difference.

.
Quote:
could a driver with an upper bandwidth limit of ~10kHz really be called FR??
OK, how wide of a frequency range is required. Probably depends on the music I guess. But for my application, acoustic jazz, how low does the bass go and how high do I need to extend. Bass to 40 Hz seems adequate and since I am older I don't feel the need for a super tweeter to fill in the response above 12 to 15 kHz. If you look at some of the measurements of very expensive multi way systems in Stereophile I think that you will find not a one that produces 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Most roll -off at 60 Hz or higher for the bass and at about 12 kHz for the top end. I am not sure that the ultimate goal of a ruler flat response from 20 Hz to 20 kHz is achievable or required. The minute you put the speaker in a room your response, per this criteria, is very poor. I think you are fooling yourself is you think there are many speakers (if any) that reach this goal.

One last point. If you are comparing a multi way speaker with a full range system, it should be for similar diameter drivers. Compare the 8" full range with the 8" two way. Comparing an 8" full range with a 10" or 12" three way is an apples to oranges test, even the 8" two way would fall short. Compare equivalent priced systems, even though a Lowther is expensive by the time you buy an 8" mid bass, a tweeter, and the crossover parts the prices will probably be close to the same
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