I've started a thread on making a DIY cnc machine...feel free to post away...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115876
[edit]Thanks Ed...it's fixed now.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115876
[edit]Thanks Ed...it's fixed now.
FH project
Ok, I'm a total noob, at DIY. I am not a total noob at Audiophile sound. I'm a dab hand at woodworking, though someone wrote on this forum last year that they figured 50/50, build/finish, whereas I figure 30/30/40. that's: build/ do it right the second time/ try to cover my goof-ups with finish.
I have been lurking around the boards for a while and have more or less decided to assist in fulfilling the destiny of the FH, "in my own way".
I have been following several forums since joining, namely the EnABL, Spawn of Frugel Horn, and the Frugel Horn.
I am looking for an efficient, speaker that provides a superior sound field/ imaging.
I have very little gold to expend on this project. I also have 2, 4x8 sheets of very nice looking "sugar Pine" plywood that I purchased for cabinet building, which have little to no voids ( I've already used a couple of sheets ). and knots so small that they can be worked around, EG. 2-3 <.125" on an entire face. So wood material, check. I'll buy more MDF for the shop cabinets.
I am very "in" to the idea of open source/community feedback idea of the FH design. I have no desire to off put the Fostex Fanatics out there, but I refer to above comment about gold when I say has anyone built a set of FH's with the Pioneer 4.5" A11EC80-02F full range drivers. YET. I am considering just such an excercise in " If I don't like them, I can always buy the Fostex later.
I hope that with a little "massaging", and maybe some cheap tweeters, I can truly turn a sow's ear into a silk purse? not really, but I 'll be able to buy four of the Pioneer's from Parts Express for the cost of 1,FE 126, or two of the pioneers, and a couple of piezo tweeters.
Now, to nuts and bolts, I plan to build the "Wedgie" version, with the LARGE connection chamber ( can always make it shorter, measure twice cut once eh?) Damp only the back, bottom and sides of the chamber, add a " holey" brace throughout the connection chamber to brace the back of the magnet, and proved additional stiffness/ further deaden the cabinet. Build an Oak front panel which is pleasantly High in WAF, while sneakily incorporating an aprox. 12" dia. suprabaffle around the driver.
I'm looking for some feedback from you who have more experience than I. For those who will ask, I'm in the process of renovating my 40+ year old Dynaco, PAS 3 Pre; and Stereo 70 amp. to drive these 'horns.
I truly want other's thought and ideas reguarding these choices, from what I've read, I think this "may" be able to make some nice noise, as I said above , if'n I hate it , I can always rob the piggy and upgrade!
John B.
Ok, I'm a total noob, at DIY. I am not a total noob at Audiophile sound. I'm a dab hand at woodworking, though someone wrote on this forum last year that they figured 50/50, build/finish, whereas I figure 30/30/40. that's: build/ do it right the second time/ try to cover my goof-ups with finish.
I have been lurking around the boards for a while and have more or less decided to assist in fulfilling the destiny of the FH, "in my own way".
I have been following several forums since joining, namely the EnABL, Spawn of Frugel Horn, and the Frugel Horn.
I am looking for an efficient, speaker that provides a superior sound field/ imaging.
I have very little gold to expend on this project. I also have 2, 4x8 sheets of very nice looking "sugar Pine" plywood that I purchased for cabinet building, which have little to no voids ( I've already used a couple of sheets ). and knots so small that they can be worked around, EG. 2-3 <.125" on an entire face. So wood material, check. I'll buy more MDF for the shop cabinets.
I am very "in" to the idea of open source/community feedback idea of the FH design. I have no desire to off put the Fostex Fanatics out there, but I refer to above comment about gold when I say has anyone built a set of FH's with the Pioneer 4.5" A11EC80-02F full range drivers. YET. I am considering just such an excercise in " If I don't like them, I can always buy the Fostex later.
I hope that with a little "massaging", and maybe some cheap tweeters, I can truly turn a sow's ear into a silk purse? not really, but I 'll be able to buy four of the Pioneer's from Parts Express for the cost of 1,FE 126, or two of the pioneers, and a couple of piezo tweeters.
Now, to nuts and bolts, I plan to build the "Wedgie" version, with the LARGE connection chamber ( can always make it shorter, measure twice cut once eh?) Damp only the back, bottom and sides of the chamber, add a " holey" brace throughout the connection chamber to brace the back of the magnet, and proved additional stiffness/ further deaden the cabinet. Build an Oak front panel which is pleasantly High in WAF, while sneakily incorporating an aprox. 12" dia. suprabaffle around the driver.
I'm looking for some feedback from you who have more experience than I. For those who will ask, I'm in the process of renovating my 40+ year old Dynaco, PAS 3 Pre; and Stereo 70 amp. to drive these 'horns.
I truly want other's thought and ideas reguarding these choices, from what I've read, I think this "may" be able to make some nice noise, as I said above , if'n I hate it , I can always rob the piggy and upgrade!
John B.
GM said:
Greg, I don't know if you looked at my sims but the a11 simmed very well in the Model II BLH. I wasn't expecting it either. I was very surprised at how well it simmed though and I think it might be worth a shot in the FH. If it doesn't work, well, you are out 22 bux. No big deal.
I have attached an image that shows some drivers that are good with horns as well as a few that shouldn't work but simmed very well in the Model II. Here is the link where it was discussed briefly. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116081
So, I wouldn't discount the A11, give it a shot. If you like it, you can do some other stuff to improve it's sound quality and you might have a great bang for the buck speaker.
In fact, Jeremy out in Utah (he built the flat fonkens) is buildling the model II right now and is going to use the A11's initially so we should get some input on how well they work soon.
Tom
Attachments
A11/FH
I was a bit bleary eyed by the time I posted that last night, I had meant to include a question about the "Q" of that driver being possibly too high, and if that would therefore eliminate it from being a viable choice.
Thanks for the input. I had intended to "Tweak" the drivers when I got to the point of installation, but planned to put them in boxes and break them in first.
I'm very intrigued by the EnABL process, I had thought to apply it to the pioneers, but wanted to break'em in, and give them a listen before and after. I won't pretend to understand the physics of the process, but I trust the aural instruments I was born with.
BTW Dave at Planet 10, where do you get the "Duct Seal"? I spent 12 years working in wholesale HVAC supply houses, where we sold a lot of metal duct ( kinda gives away that I'm no Teen, eh. That was 20 years ago.). I've never seen the product.
I was a bit bleary eyed by the time I posted that last night, I had meant to include a question about the "Q" of that driver being possibly too high, and if that would therefore eliminate it from being a viable choice.
Thanks for the input. I had intended to "Tweak" the drivers when I got to the point of installation, but planned to put them in boxes and break them in first.
I'm very intrigued by the EnABL process, I had thought to apply it to the pioneers, but wanted to break'em in, and give them a listen before and after. I won't pretend to understand the physics of the process, but I trust the aural instruments I was born with.
BTW Dave at Planet 10, where do you get the "Duct Seal"? I spent 12 years working in wholesale HVAC supply houses, where we sold a lot of metal duct ( kinda gives away that I'm no Teen, eh. That was 20 years ago.). I've never seen the product.
Re: FH project
No, I haven't kept up with your designs since I prefer to devote my quality time helping folks who seem more interested in learning from history than repeating it. Regardless, yes, when designed for a worst case scenario, BLHs are somewhat tolerant of driver specs since there's enough excess CC Vb/mid-bass gain to ~acceptably tune them to a range of drivers, but even then a sim tells us little about how well it will perform. Just research TZ's CSS FR125S PAWO BLH or Dave P10's problems he had with a technically 'ideal' MLTL alignment I did when it was first released, so along with my recent experiments with this driver in an oversize MLTL, I don't recommend it in any of these BLH designs either.
Bottom line, JB asked for experienced opinions and I have loaded the A11 into a variety of alignments (though not a BLH of the types under consideration), discussing them a bit years ago on the original FR forum, and I stand by my belief that it's a very poor choice for a BLH such as the FH, and now yours especially since they are essentially scoop bins. Indeed, I posted my opinion based on the specs of yesteryear, though after viewing PE's current measured specsjust now which are even less BLH 'friendly', it's for sure a complete waste of dollars IMNSHO, especially for someone with as tight a budget as JB claims.
Anyway, since we all perceive sounds a bit differently and it's a well proven axiom that the speakers you build are statistically always excellent performers (the physics of the situation not withstanding), so as always YMMV, etc..
GM
Harderror said:
No, I haven't kept up with your designs since I prefer to devote my quality time helping folks who seem more interested in learning from history than repeating it. Regardless, yes, when designed for a worst case scenario, BLHs are somewhat tolerant of driver specs since there's enough excess CC Vb/mid-bass gain to ~acceptably tune them to a range of drivers, but even then a sim tells us little about how well it will perform. Just research TZ's CSS FR125S PAWO BLH or Dave P10's problems he had with a technically 'ideal' MLTL alignment I did when it was first released, so along with my recent experiments with this driver in an oversize MLTL, I don't recommend it in any of these BLH designs either.
Bottom line, JB asked for experienced opinions and I have loaded the A11 into a variety of alignments (though not a BLH of the types under consideration), discussing them a bit years ago on the original FR forum, and I stand by my belief that it's a very poor choice for a BLH such as the FH, and now yours especially since they are essentially scoop bins. Indeed, I posted my opinion based on the specs of yesteryear, though after viewing PE's current measured specsjust now which are even less BLH 'friendly', it's for sure a complete waste of dollars IMNSHO, especially for someone with as tight a budget as JB claims.
Anyway, since we all perceive sounds a bit differently and it's a well proven axiom that the speakers you build are statistically always excellent performers (the physics of the situation not withstanding), so as always YMMV, etc..
GM
I have to say I agree with GM on this -on a quick pass through MathCAD, the Pioneer does not look pretty in the FH, as expected really. Plus, the damping the horn will place on the driver means it's HF is going to take a hit, above the frequencies Martin's worksheets covers. If you want to do it, then investing the extra for the 126 will be worth it. Even if you have to save an extra month or so.
Re: A11/FH
You're welcome!
Its Qes is a bit of a problem, but its suspension is the real stumbling block, same as the CSS IMO, that makes it problematic in any alignment that allows hardly any excursion without some sort of extremely high damping, something that no simming program I'm aware of can predict.
WRT EnABL and all the other tweaks we do to 'el cheapo' FR drivers, it can improve them immensely, but will still fall short of a well designed unit of the same frame size. Still, the tweaking is a good learning experience and a deep sense of accomplishment when you've gotten it performing audibly better overall.
FYI, the last duct seal I bought was at Lowe's, though it wasn't Ideal's Duct Seal and I've long since thrown away the box, but it was in the dept. with the galvanized vent pipes.
GM
mightym said:
You're welcome!
Its Qes is a bit of a problem, but its suspension is the real stumbling block, same as the CSS IMO, that makes it problematic in any alignment that allows hardly any excursion without some sort of extremely high damping, something that no simming program I'm aware of can predict.
WRT EnABL and all the other tweaks we do to 'el cheapo' FR drivers, it can improve them immensely, but will still fall short of a well designed unit of the same frame size. Still, the tweaking is a good learning experience and a deep sense of accomplishment when you've gotten it performing audibly better overall.
FYI, the last duct seal I bought was at Lowe's, though it wasn't Ideal's Duct Seal and I've long since thrown away the box, but it was in the dept. with the galvanized vent pipes.
GM
no A11 in a frugel horn
Thanks to Scottmoose, GM, and Harderror for your comments.
I can, and probably will skip the pioneers on this project, I've a little too much scotsblud in me to give up 4X the money without even considering an alternative. My brother says I'm so tight I squeak when I walk.
I'll check out Lowe's, there's one about 30 min from here, for the Duct Seal.
John B.
Thanks to Scottmoose, GM, and Harderror for your comments.
I can, and probably will skip the pioneers on this project, I've a little too much scotsblud in me to give up 4X the money without even considering an alternative. My brother says I'm so tight I squeak when I walk.
I'll check out Lowe's, there's one about 30 min from here, for the Duct Seal.
John B.
John - as far as relative price of drivers is concerned, I'd like to suggest you consider the following:
1)While it's suggested from your initial post that the sugar pine plywood are remnants from another project, unless they were gifted, there must have been an associated cost, far higher than that of MDF or particleboard. Of course I'm a well known fan of plywood, so I wouldn't even consider MDF for any portion of this project except the rear deflectors.
2)You're planning on renovating your old Dyna PAS3X and Stereo 70. I dare say that the total cost of even simple replacement of parts known to have reliability issues on these well over 40yr old pieces (i.e. all EL caps, and quite likely some of the original phenolic PCBs, not to mention resistors that may have drifted dangerously off value) could well exceed the difference between the silk purse and sow's ear.
3) The Frugelhorn was intended from the beginning to allow for choice from a wide range of choice of "appropriate" drivers, as well as aesthetic interpretation. IMHO the Fostex FE126E happens to be one of best bang for the buck choices you could make. Furthermore, I think that a poll of FH builders who've made that choice would reveal relatively few that felt a tweeter was mandatory.
While typing the above paragraph, it's occurred to me that a such a poll of FH builders might be very insightful, as well as posting of photos to the Planet10 builders gallery. Include at least the type of associated electronics, choice of drivers (& tweaks), and any changes made since original construction.
1)While it's suggested from your initial post that the sugar pine plywood are remnants from another project, unless they were gifted, there must have been an associated cost, far higher than that of MDF or particleboard. Of course I'm a well known fan of plywood, so I wouldn't even consider MDF for any portion of this project except the rear deflectors.
2)You're planning on renovating your old Dyna PAS3X and Stereo 70. I dare say that the total cost of even simple replacement of parts known to have reliability issues on these well over 40yr old pieces (i.e. all EL caps, and quite likely some of the original phenolic PCBs, not to mention resistors that may have drifted dangerously off value) could well exceed the difference between the silk purse and sow's ear.
3) The Frugelhorn was intended from the beginning to allow for choice from a wide range of choice of "appropriate" drivers, as well as aesthetic interpretation. IMHO the Fostex FE126E happens to be one of best bang for the buck choices you could make. Furthermore, I think that a poll of FH builders who've made that choice would reveal relatively few that felt a tweeter was mandatory.
While typing the above paragraph, it's occurred to me that a such a poll of FH builders might be very insightful, as well as posting of photos to the Planet10 builders gallery. Include at least the type of associated electronics, choice of drivers (& tweaks), and any changes made since original construction.
Chrisb
Thanks for your comments. While economy is important to me, I really don't mind spending money for quality where it should be spent.
The Plywood was originally purchased to make cabinet carcases, and doors for my shop. It was on sale when I bought it, and haven't seen the likes of it since at the lumberyard here where I live. It's of high enough quality that I am confident of it's use in speaker cab's. I would much rather see it used on this project.
I've officially been converted to the Fostex FE 126. The Dynaco is something I have had for nearly 40 years, I intend to renovate them to like new, with exception of the PAS pwr suply. Those selenium's have got to go. The balance will be renewed as necessary. I have always enjoyed the sound of this equipment, I shelved it because I got lazy and wanted a remote control. A decision I've regretted off and on over the ensuing years, as I know it's not particularly good for tube equipment to sit.
In the mean time, the FH's can be driven by my HT receiver, It's a middle of the road Technics, which for what it is does OK.
John B.
Thanks for your comments. While economy is important to me, I really don't mind spending money for quality where it should be spent.
The Plywood was originally purchased to make cabinet carcases, and doors for my shop. It was on sale when I bought it, and haven't seen the likes of it since at the lumberyard here where I live. It's of high enough quality that I am confident of it's use in speaker cab's. I would much rather see it used on this project.
I've officially been converted to the Fostex FE 126. The Dynaco is something I have had for nearly 40 years, I intend to renovate them to like new, with exception of the PAS pwr suply. Those selenium's have got to go. The balance will be renewed as necessary. I have always enjoyed the sound of this equipment, I shelved it because I got lazy and wanted a remote control. A decision I've regretted off and on over the ensuing years, as I know it's not particularly good for tube equipment to sit.
In the mean time, the FH's can be driven by my HT receiver, It's a middle of the road Technics, which for what it is does OK.
John B.
which speaker?
I have 2 sets of speakers idle in garage and am interested in frugel-horn.
A: 3" TB 3W-593C, with full parameters here:
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w3-593sf.htm
or
B: 4.5" Pioneer A11EC80-02F ("el cheapo"): Fs: 70 Hz * SPL: 90 dB 1W/1m * Vas: .31 cu. ft. * Xmax: 1.1mm * Qms: 1.40 * Qes: .47 * Qts: .35 *
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-010
anyone suggest whether any of above will be reasonable in FH enclosure?
thanks,
gychang
I have 2 sets of speakers idle in garage and am interested in frugel-horn.
A: 3" TB 3W-593C, with full parameters here:
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w3-593sf.htm
or
B: 4.5" Pioneer A11EC80-02F ("el cheapo"): Fs: 70 Hz * SPL: 90 dB 1W/1m * Vas: .31 cu. ft. * Xmax: 1.1mm * Qms: 1.40 * Qes: .47 * Qts: .35 *
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-010
anyone suggest whether any of above will be reasonable in FH enclosure?
thanks,
gychang
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