Banned
Joined 2002
I lent out my Frugals last week for a friend to try with his Taboo ( I think I said zen last time by accident).
If he liked they way they sounded he was going to buy the 126's off me so I could buy the 127's to try out
The fella is a carpenter and after he saw them he mentioned that he would buy them complete if I wanted to sell the boxes.
That was an ego boost and let me know while I am a better mechanic than a speaker building the gap is closing.
I phoned him at the night of day one and was disappointed and also not surprised that he found them slightly hollow and lacking bass. If you recall dave I was getting a hollow sound with some recordings and never tweaked them because I wanted to break the drivers in first. The lack of bass that was the same thing I found but my placement was less than ideal and so was his.
He said he was not interested in them but thanked me. I told him to hang on to them and use them until monday and we would meet for a return.
I told him to break the drivers in for me and try changing the placement. I also gave him some solid core enamelled copper wire to try out when he left with them.
He was a big fan of the wire that same night and likely will not go back to his other wire.
While his last review was less than steller I expected them back on monday and he still has them. I will follow up on friday to see how he made out.
I am not worried about the slight hollow sound because the cabs are solid and I knew that they would require some attention for my tastes. I believe that it is resonance within the chamber off the back of the driver. Thats my best guess anyway. I did build them so I could adjust the CC and any material that is needed, all I have to do is wait until I get them back.
Gex
If he liked they way they sounded he was going to buy the 126's off me so I could buy the 127's to try out
The fella is a carpenter and after he saw them he mentioned that he would buy them complete if I wanted to sell the boxes.
That was an ego boost and let me know while I am a better mechanic than a speaker building the gap is closing.
I phoned him at the night of day one and was disappointed and also not surprised that he found them slightly hollow and lacking bass. If you recall dave I was getting a hollow sound with some recordings and never tweaked them because I wanted to break the drivers in first. The lack of bass that was the same thing I found but my placement was less than ideal and so was his.
He said he was not interested in them but thanked me. I told him to hang on to them and use them until monday and we would meet for a return.
I told him to break the drivers in for me and try changing the placement. I also gave him some solid core enamelled copper wire to try out when he left with them.
He was a big fan of the wire that same night and likely will not go back to his other wire.
While his last review was less than steller I expected them back on monday and he still has them. I will follow up on friday to see how he made out.
I am not worried about the slight hollow sound because the cabs are solid and I knew that they would require some attention for my tastes. I believe that it is resonance within the chamber off the back of the driver. Thats my best guess anyway. I did build them so I could adjust the CC and any material that is needed, all I have to do is wait until I get them back.
Gex
thanks for the input so far.
Chris the drivers have not much more than when I got them from Dave. I suppose I have about a hundred hours and they are sounding richer and deeper but the hollow sound rears its ugly head still.
I do know they need more time, after I get the hollow sound figured I will put them in my trailer in my yard, and lock it up and let em run for a week or two. I only get about 5 hours of listening time a week so it will take forever that way.
John, my sides panels are 3/4 baltic birch and 1/2 baltic on the inside.
I also have 3/4 solid maple fronts tops and bottoms.
the inside v is filled with expanding foam to keep the throat from flexing. ( After I try a few things I may remove the v and the foam as a last resort and pour concrete in) ha ha on the concrete.
the CC is the smallest one. picture a solid wall behind the driver just below the start of the horn that is ( was it 31.? cm I can't remember at the moment).
If you use the chart of volumes for the cc it is the small one and the medium is two screws away after I pull the driver.
clear as mud?
thanks fellas
Chris the drivers have not much more than when I got them from Dave. I suppose I have about a hundred hours and they are sounding richer and deeper but the hollow sound rears its ugly head still.
I do know they need more time, after I get the hollow sound figured I will put them in my trailer in my yard, and lock it up and let em run for a week or two. I only get about 5 hours of listening time a week so it will take forever that way.
John, my sides panels are 3/4 baltic birch and 1/2 baltic on the inside.
I also have 3/4 solid maple fronts tops and bottoms.
the inside v is filled with expanding foam to keep the throat from flexing. ( After I try a few things I may remove the v and the foam as a last resort and pour concrete in) ha ha on the concrete.
the CC is the smallest one. picture a solid wall behind the driver just below the start of the horn that is ( was it 31.? cm I can't remember at the moment).
If you use the chart of volumes for the cc it is the small one and the medium is two screws away after I pull the driver.
clear as mud?
thanks fellas
I am not sure if this will be helpful but I built these rear loaded horns last year.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Solo206.html
I was particularly worried about the cabinet colouring the sound in the lower frequencies. So I went to great lengths to deaden the cabinet in this area.
I lined the back and sides of the horns upper with a led bitumim hi density foam material used around pipes in multi story homes as sound proofing and then filled the same area of the horn with a lite wool / poly material which I varied in volume until I was happy with the sound out of the horn.
I also made my bafel out of a concrete and the chamber is lined with felt and filled slightly.
It seams to have worked out the lower end for me (the upper frequencies are another story as all 206 owners know)
Anyway it has and still is an interesting exercise.
Great looking horn you guys have here and I am watching to see how it all progresses.
Ian
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Solo206.html
I was particularly worried about the cabinet colouring the sound in the lower frequencies. So I went to great lengths to deaden the cabinet in this area.
I lined the back and sides of the horns upper with a led bitumim hi density foam material used around pipes in multi story homes as sound proofing and then filled the same area of the horn with a lite wool / poly material which I varied in volume until I was happy with the sound out of the horn.
I also made my bafel out of a concrete and the chamber is lined with felt and filled slightly.
It seams to have worked out the lower end for me (the upper frequencies are another story as all 206 owners know)
Anyway it has and still is an interesting exercise.
Great looking horn you guys have here and I am watching to see how it all progresses.
Ian
Frugel-Horn experiences - so far:
I started playing with the Fostex FE126E because I wanted a pair of speakers suitable for low-power tube amps in a small room.
I am not quite there - yet.
Actually my Frugel-Horns sound quite good, but only with reasonable powerful SS amplification. With the a NAD304 (generally considered a bit sharp-sounding) they give a powerful sound with good size, dynamics, and depth of soundstage. With tubes they tend to sound too "boomy".
I remember when the drivers were new, in the Fostex recommended enclosure, they were only (just) listenable with my sweetest sounding tube SE amp.
The change in character could be the result of me overdoing the cone-treatment some time during the process of moving over to the Frugel-horns. Use of white wood glue instead of ModPodge has probably resulted in a stiffer cone, instead of just damping the surface.
I am now pondering if I should buy a fresh pair of FE126e, or if I should just be content with the result I have, and move on to a new project to meet the original objective for flea-powered tube-amp speakers.
Anyone else have comments on "boom" or bass performance in general with tube powered Frugels ?
SveinB
I started playing with the Fostex FE126E because I wanted a pair of speakers suitable for low-power tube amps in a small room.
I am not quite there - yet.
Actually my Frugel-Horns sound quite good, but only with reasonable powerful SS amplification. With the a NAD304 (generally considered a bit sharp-sounding) they give a powerful sound with good size, dynamics, and depth of soundstage. With tubes they tend to sound too "boomy".
I remember when the drivers were new, in the Fostex recommended enclosure, they were only (just) listenable with my sweetest sounding tube SE amp.
The change in character could be the result of me overdoing the cone-treatment some time during the process of moving over to the Frugel-horns. Use of white wood glue instead of ModPodge has probably resulted in a stiffer cone, instead of just damping the surface.
I am now pondering if I should buy a fresh pair of FE126e, or if I should just be content with the result I have, and move on to a new project to meet the original objective for flea-powered tube-amp speakers.
Anyone else have comments on "boom" or bass performance in general with tube powered Frugels ?
SveinB
Banned
Joined 2002
Loboone said:
I really like the looks of these too, my only question is that , do you find you have to use a tweeter ? last pair of speaker that were full range but i found to my ear they needed a little bit more tweeter. I think if i build a pair id add on a ribbon tweeter to add that little touch. One thing i did notice they are really fussy where they sit.
If you sit at head level with the driver there is lots of detail but if your off a inch or so it's all gone.
Good luck getting me to stay still for more than 5 min is pretty hard to do, so that's why i think i need the tweeter on top.
Svein_B said:Frugel-Horn experiences - so far:
I started playing with the Fostex FE126E because I wanted a pair of speakers suitable for low-power tube amps in a small room.
I am not quite there - yet.
Actually my Frugel-Horns sound quite good, but only with reasonable powerful SS amplification. With the a NAD304 (generally considered a bit sharp-sounding) they give a powerful sound with good size, dynamics, and depth of soundstage. With tubes they tend to sound too "boomy".
I remember when the drivers were new, in the Fostex recommended enclosure, they were only (just) listenable with my sweetest sounding tube SE amp.
The change in character could be the result of me overdoing the cone-treatment some time during the process of moving over to the Frugel-horns. Use of white wood glue instead of ModPodge has probably resulted in a stiffer cone, instead of just damping the surface.
I am now pondering if I should buy a fresh pair of FE126e, or if I should just be content with the result I have, and move on to a new project to meet the original objective for flea-powered tube-amp speakers.
Anyone else have comments on "boom" or bass performance in general with tube powered Frugels ?
SveinB
As Dave can tell you, it's very easy to overdo the treatment, even for someone with decades of experience.
If your budget can afford it, you should consider trying a pair of the Planet10 modified FE126's in your horns.
as for the subjective quality of bass - one man's boom is another man's full bodied.
I run Dave's modified 126s (albeit int he double-back horns we designed) and they're a quantum step forward from the standard units. Well worth trying -sounds to me like you have indeed been a little over-enthusiastic with the cone mods I'm afraid.
Re boom -I'm very surprised. The Frugel's FR is deliberately shaped for corner placement, with a decreasing response below 100Hz to allow for the considerable lift applied by room-gain. You say they work fine with SS but not with tubes. So it can't really be the enclosure -it's got to be the driver / amp interaction. Normally most SS amps would badly over-damp the 126, and tubes be the better choice. However, your mods may have affected the driver to the extent where tubes are now under-damping the units. What speaker wire are you running? If your cable is on the thin side, which is usually ideal for many FR units, it might be worth trying a heavy gauge wire with the tube amp -say 10AWG zip-cord or as heavy a run of ring-mains cable as you can lay your hands on. That should at least prevent the cable from lifting Qe.
In terms of a mechanical mod to the cabinet, which I think it's fairly safe to say isn't the culprit here, you could add some damping material in, or across the mouth. Some BAF sheet wadding stretched across it should start to help damp out the bass frequencies a little.
Regards
Scott
Re boom -I'm very surprised. The Frugel's FR is deliberately shaped for corner placement, with a decreasing response below 100Hz to allow for the considerable lift applied by room-gain. You say they work fine with SS but not with tubes. So it can't really be the enclosure -it's got to be the driver / amp interaction. Normally most SS amps would badly over-damp the 126, and tubes be the better choice. However, your mods may have affected the driver to the extent where tubes are now under-damping the units. What speaker wire are you running? If your cable is on the thin side, which is usually ideal for many FR units, it might be worth trying a heavy gauge wire with the tube amp -say 10AWG zip-cord or as heavy a run of ring-mains cable as you can lay your hands on. That should at least prevent the cable from lifting Qe.
In terms of a mechanical mod to the cabinet, which I think it's fairly safe to say isn't the culprit here, you could add some damping material in, or across the mouth. Some BAF sheet wadding stretched across it should start to help damp out the bass frequencies a little.
Regards
Scott
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