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Old 6th October 2008, 02:32 PM   #1001
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While that is a great idea from an ergonomic perspective, it implies a design challenge. I am currently rockin a single sealed 15 inch sub to complement the little horns and the sub will run out of steam long before the horns (especially on bass heavy material with my bass heavy sub gain and with the frugals high passed) even in my medium/small room. Trying to get this type of spl from a couple of deflector sized subs is not going to be easy or cheap.

OTOH, it would be a great reason to run 3 (or more) subs.
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Old 6th October 2008, 03:06 PM   #1002
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Quote:
Originally posted by just a guy

OTOH, it would be a great reason to run 3 (or more) subs.
Or just a pair of more efficient subs.
A pair of 18s, down firing, tight in the corner, is more than enough for the A166s, in fact a little bass heavy driving them both off the same amp (SET or PP)...
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Old 22nd October 2008, 07:37 PM   #1003
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Update time. It's been awhile.

I tried the suprabaffles, I tried the deflectors, I tried positioning and toe in and everything else I could think of. This speaker was showing me no love and the only thing left was the final cc tweaking. It became apparent that there was nothing I could do to the speaker to make it sound normal.

This led me to think about other areas that could be improved to make the speakers sound better. I wanted a steeper sub xo slope and maybe a bit of parametric eq. I ended up buying the Thuneau software pc eq system for the same price of the featureless Reckhorn B1 xo (or is it F1 - who cares anyway).

The Thuneau software has all of the functionality (that I would actually use) of the Behringer DCX which is ~$300 and needs special custom cables (xlr - rca). It took me about 2 weeks to actually figure this little program out, but once I got the audio routing out of the way it was all easy as pie.

I did my measurements. Measured both the sub (a sealed 15) and the little horns (on the opposite side of the room) separately with a full range signal from the listening spot with Room Eq Wizard. I imported the graphs into SPL Tracer and made my .frd files. I imported the .frd files into the Thuneau software and ... whoa, wait a minute, why didn't I notice this before? (the pic below is the thuneau interface showing the 2 frd files before any xo or other dsp is performed - the green line is the sub and the blue is the little horns - the pic looks nasty cuz I had to brighten it up a lot to make is very visible)

Click the image to open in full size.

The sealed sub should be a fairly straight line (you know what I mean) - any deviation from this would be due to the room. As you can see, that line is anything but straight - showcasing a ~15 db bump at 50 hz that I've been fighting with for the past few years. I've also had problems with vocal in this room - the frugal horn makes it worse, but it's always there.

But the thing I noticed right away when I saw this is that it appears as though I've made a speaker that has resonances which are located at almost exactly the same places the room resonances are located - 50 hz, 110 hz, 230 hz, 7/800hz. Now what are the chances of that?

Anyway, a variable xo slope (6 - 42 db/oct) and 4 bands of parametric eq per leg really flatten the response. With the addition of the pc xo this is now the finest system I have yet assembled - but it's very clear now that these little horns are a terrible match for this room.

I still need to get these horns into a more suitable room and see what they sound like. As I keep saying, this room is my worst enemy.
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Old 22nd October 2008, 08:35 PM   #1004
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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j a g:

It's clear you consider the room a major part of your problem (I have similar issues) - if you don't mind refreshing my memory, did you ever describe the dimensions, etc?

If you haven't already populated a short list of replacement candidates for the FH, perhaps my own experience might be of benefit?

I have tried probably over a dozen different designs in my little room over the past year or so, including only a couple of 2-ways, and have settle on 2 favorites, (Planet10 Fonken, and ScottMoose's Brynn) both using either the FE127E or the harder to source HA FR4.5.

The Brynn is by far an easier build, and doesn't require stands.

Maybe one day I'll even get some in room measurements.
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Old 22nd October 2008, 09:08 PM   #1005
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Here's the room. 14 x 11 x 7.5 (approx and IIRC) not including closet area. Closet has big double doors. Red line is entrance to room doorway, short hallway behind this door. Circle is the listening area in general, a particular "best" spot has yet to be determined. The blue square is where the sub is currently located and where it actually was when the above measurements were taken. Floors are carpeted and the room is basically completely untreated for sound in any way.

Click the image to open in full size.

I do have a short list of stuff I want to try. Maybe Aiko, Saburo and Sachiko. Each of these still has a (much more gentle) midbass bump and are probably not the absolutely ideal choices for this room. But the only reason the frugals are in this room is because it's the only room with actual suitable corners. Any of those 3 designs would probably work great in the (much) bigger room.

Your advice is always more than welcome, but I am not buying any new drivers until I've used the ones I have (108, 126, 206 - 1 pr. each). The 108 is the only one which does not explicitly demand to be in a horn, but without a horn it won't go low enough to meet a sub. OTOH, each of these could probably be used as HF driver in OB too.

Either way, the next speakers I build will not absolutely require corner loading and so they won't be in this terrible little room at all.
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Old 22nd October 2008, 09:21 PM   #1006
DaveCan is offline DaveCan  Canada
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Holy bad sub placement batman!!
Dave
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Old 22nd October 2008, 09:28 PM   #1007
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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The FE126 will work in the Brynns with some series R - not as well as the FE127. They will give you far better placement options than any rear mouthed horns, and they're far less visually imposing than any of the double height Spawn series, which can take more room for the soundstage to fully integrate than your effective listening position will allow.

On the first pair that I built, I used a bi-wire input terminal cup to allow for easy experiment with values of the series R - it should also provide plenty of space for BSC components if you elect to do so.

Not shown on the drawing is the option to build the lower deflector with stepped blocks - a real PITA - just add several front to back braces or fill the void with sand or your favorite ballast, otherwise it's quite resonant.

An inverted BIB might also work for this room (and wouldn't need series R ) Also a very simple construction, but with the narrow enclosure width, a suprabaffle should be considered as well.

There are probably dozens of enclosure designs for the FE108ESigma that are favored by DIYers, but the Aiko is by a wide margin the best I've heard- but, again, your listening position might be too close.


As DaveCan noted above, you might want to try experimenting with sub placement, starting between the mains on the front wall, or approx 1/3 way down either side wall.
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Old 22nd October 2008, 10:38 PM   #1008
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Quote:
Holy bad sub placement batman!!
I knew the sub position would cause some concern but forgot to comment on it. Any position along the front wall (same wall as the little horns) is unacceptable. It sounds fine enough (doesn't measure any better though) but not loud enough and I run out of power sometimes. More subs or more power or both could fix that but I end up waking people up before I get a suitable amount of bass at the listening spot. The door opens into the room, so the sub can't be anywhere near there and I can't block off the closet doors. Can't have them along the side wall anywhere near the horns (front half of the room). That does not leave much, just the 1/3 from the back along both sidewalls, which hasn't been tried due to furniture being in those spots.

BUT... the room treatment gurus told me that the room is effectively 17 feet long because the closet IS part of the room. Using 17 feet as the effective length, the sub actually IS very close to 1/3 of the length (the drawing I made is not to scale).

Either way, the sub is really not a problem. With up to 42db/oct xo (somewhere around 80 hz) and 4 parametric eq just for this bandwidth I could probably put it out in the hall somewhere and dial it in.

Chrisb, the last speakers I made were inverted BIBs (a bit oversized - or fat - for the 126). In addition to the ripply mid response, they have a bit of midbass peakiness too, but not nearly as much as the frugal horn. They currently live in the closet of this terrible room, as I decide what to do with them. IMO they are tuned WAY too low for the 126 (40 hz) since they are VERY large (for a 4 inch driver) but absolutely can NOT do a convincing 40 hz without a sub - which makes them a problem - a (relatively) very large and heavy speaker with that still needs a sub. The same might be said for the spawns I plan to build (I am pretty sure saburo will not knock me off my chair with a 40 hz tone) but I am willing to bet the dual mouth auditory experience will be worth the size.

Nice to hear that you like aiko (although I already knew that). I am strongly considering it as the next build, something small to introduce me to the spawns.
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Old 22nd October 2008, 11:21 PM   #1009
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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I tend to avoid subs for my music only systems, so other than to comment that for a room that size, a pair of smaller "bass augmenters" (i.e. powered 8-10"woofers) as opposed to much larger displacement drivers could well give you greater placement flexibility and performance. The CSS SDX7 is a great candidate for this - while the design pays the "Hoffman's Iron Law" premium, outboard bass amps such as the Dayton are dirt cheap, and you can get away with very small sealed enclosures.

I mentioned the BIBs only because quite a few folks like them a lot. I've only heard 2 pairs, Terry's original demos at VSAC2001 (FE164 I believe) , and an inverted pair with FE108ESigma. My experience with the smaller driver certainly concurs with yours; far too midbass ripple, and strained at moderate to louder levels - of course that was without bass support of any type, and on an outdoor deck.

For many folks, the Aiko could well need help in the bottom end, and they're not the easiest build in the world - a lot more parts than the FH for example.
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Old 23rd October 2008, 02:20 AM   #1010
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisb

~~~~~~~~~~~~Big Snip~~~~~~~~~~~

There are probably dozens of enclosure designs for the FE108ESigma that are favored by DIYers, but the Aiko is by a wide margin the best I've heard- but, again, your listening position might be too close.


As DaveCan noted above, you might want to try experimenting with sub placement, starting between the mains on the front wall, or approx 1/3 way down either side wall.

ATTENTION PLEASE!
For the first time ever, Chris and I are in complete agreement!!!

I think that the 108sigma/Aikos I heard at Dave's 2 years ago were some of the most "enchanting" speakers I've ever heard, at least for vocals and acoustic instruments. I wasn't alone either, as Kevin Haskins liked them, as well as a couple of hard-core, over-the-top, DSP multi-way Diy veterans whose names, if mentioned, would strike terror into the hearts of all Single-Driver True Believers.

Hell, I even have dreams of those speakers and that doesn't happen often.

As a final note, I would like to quote a line from The Prophecy:

Distributed Bass is your friend and will help you gain Sonic Supremacy over the host of opposing forces...

Best Regards,
TerryO

PS: Terry Cain's original BIB's at VSAC featured Radio Shack 40-1354 drivers.
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