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Old 27th March 2006, 11:20 AM   #1
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Default How bad is really a crossover?

I am debating weather using an extended mid-range driver or a bigger low-mid crossed over to a high mid driver at 1000-2000. Using a bigger (10-12") low-mid driver has obvious advantages (power handling, compression, dynamics) at the price of the crossover.

Maybe someone has done the following experiment:

How about comparing the sound of 1) a full range 2) two of the same fullrangers with a cross over between them arond 1KHz. I`m sure someone with a digital xover has done it before. I would be happy to hear your comments.

regards,

seb
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Old 27th March 2006, 03:39 PM   #2
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Crossovers often are like your headline sentence; your meaning came across to the reader, just rather poorly.

(I don't mean this insultingly, I just thought it was a good analogy)
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Old 27th March 2006, 05:11 PM   #3
jesper is offline jesper  Sweden
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I have not done exactly that test, but I have tried crossing two fullrange driver, one smaller and one larger using a 1:st order filter. Due to the large overlap of the drivers the x-over hade true 1:st order acoustic slope. Not common with ordinary drivers. I also time aligned the drivers. The result was quite pleasing.
The sum of a true 1:st order filter is phase linear (if drivers are time aligned). The only difference against a single driver is loobing issues and of cause some passive components in the signal path.

/Jesper
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Old 27th March 2006, 08:42 PM   #4
Zen Mod is offline Zen Mod  Serbia
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Default Re: How bad is really a crossover?

Quote:
Originally posted by swak
I am debating weather using an extended mid-range driver or a bigger low-mid crossed over to a high mid driver at 1000-2000. Using a bigger (10-12") low-mid driver has obvious advantages (power handling, compression, dynamics) at the price of the crossover.

Maybe someone has done the following experiment:

How about comparing the sound of 1) a full range 2) two of the same fullrangers with a cross over between them arond 1KHz. I`m sure someone with a digital xover has done it before. I would be happy to hear your comments.

regards,

seb

never use 800Hz - 2KHz region for xover point;
this is where your ears-brain combo is most sensitive;
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Old 27th March 2006, 09:10 PM   #5
AJinFLA is offline AJinFLA  United States
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Quote:
never use 800Hz - 2KHz region for xover point
Hi choky. The Linkwitz Orion is xo'd @ 1.44k. In the middle of that range you mentioned. Perhaps you can describe its faults?
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/TAC-review.htm
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Orion-TSS-review.pdf
Thanks.

cheers,

AJ
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Old 27th March 2006, 09:20 PM   #6
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Right, many very well regarded speakers cross over in the midrange. That`s why I posted the question on the first place. I thougt the 2 fullrange test would be quite conclusive on that point. Jespers experiment is very interestign, altough I would consider it better if one took the same FR driver for the highs and the lows. Very interesting anyway.
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Old 27th March 2006, 11:25 PM   #7
Zen Mod is offline Zen Mod  Serbia
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Quote:
Originally posted by AJinFLA


Hi choky. The Linkwitz Orion is xo'd @ 1.44k. In the middle of that range you mentioned. Perhaps you can describe its faults?
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/TAC-review.htm
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Orion-TSS-review.pdf
Thanks.

cheers,

AJ

to each his own

anyway-OP mentioned two fullranges ;
using fullranges crossing it in most sensitive area of human hearing is waste of potentials

at least for me
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Old 28th March 2006, 12:23 AM   #8
lndm is offline lndm  Australia
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In my opinion, a well done fullrange is better than a mediocre crossover and a well done crossover is better than a mediocre full range system.

Perhaps full range would take more money and cabinet skills, and crossover would take more time.
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Old 28th March 2006, 01:40 AM   #9
AJinFLA is offline AJinFLA  United States
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Quote:
to each his own
anyway-OP mentioned two fullranges ;
using fullranges crossing it in most sensitive area of human hearing is waste of potentials
at least for me
I see. Thanks for your answer.

Swak,
I guess the better question would be, if you are going to cross at 1-2k, why use a "fullrange" driver at all? That's tweeter territory.
Either use a small (3-5" fullrange with decent treble) driver and cross to a dedicated bass unit used below 150-300hz.
Or use a larger (8-10" extended range with decent bass) and cross high to a tweeter above 5k, etc. to avoid some of the inevitable breakup peaks/sound. Unless that's what you crave. I think that's why you sometimes see "helper" tweeters or "helper" woofers used with fullranges (I guess words like "crossover" and "2-way" are strictly taboo ).

cheers,

AJ
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Old 28th March 2006, 09:16 AM   #10
jesper is offline jesper  Sweden
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This is a subject which I think have not been debated enough.

Iíve tried to list some parameters and compared between design variants. Feel free to comment and add/remove parameters.

What can we hear?
Uneven frequency response
Uneven phase response
Bad transient response (and low level ringing)
Tonal characters of different drivers
Passive components in signal path
Uneven reverbant field
Breakup modes
Limited power handling

How is most 2-ways (with x-over in the critical region) done?
+ Even frequency response
- 2:nd order (or higher) acoustic filter slopes -> uneven phase response
- Bad-ish transient response due to the above
- Large cone driver crossed to small dome or ribbon driver -> Tonal character difference
- Passive components in the signal path
- Uneven reverbant field
+ No or few breakup modes
+ Good power handling

How can a 2-way of fullrange drivers be done?
+ Even frequency response (if good drivers are used)
+ 1:nd order acoustic filter slopes -> even phase response
+ Good transient response due to above
+ Larger cone driver crossed to a smaller cone driver of preferable same material and structure -> Low tonal character difference
- Passive components in the signal path
- Uneven reverbant field
+ Few breakup modes
+ Good power handling

What about a single driver?
+ Even frequency response (good driver)
+ Even phase response (good driver)
+ Good transient response
+ No tonal differences
+ No (or very few) passive components
+ Even revarbant field (in the critical region)
- More breakup modes
- Lesser power handling

If the x-over is done right I would say we have a package with almost the qualities of a fullrage driver but with some other advantages. A matter of compromise of cause, but worth considering IMO.

/Jesper
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