My amp is dying
21 years of great service, but I'm now in the market for something new.
Without getting really technical, I'm talking Class D-like. i.e. Panny XR's, Sonic Impact, Ice, Hypex, Gainclones, Tripath, etc. What do people say about these and single driver speakers? Many say the digital amps are bright, so mixed with the often rising response in single drivers, could this be a recipe for trouble? I've already read quite a bit here on the Class-D forum. I might try DIY'ing one.
Any real world experience with single drivers? I must admit, they are cheap, especially the Sonic Impact. I was thinking of getting the Panny so I could use it double duty with TV and DVD's.
Doug
21 years of great service, but I'm now in the market for something new.Without getting really technical, I'm talking Class D-like. i.e. Panny XR's, Sonic Impact, Ice, Hypex, Gainclones, Tripath, etc. What do people say about these and single driver speakers? Many say the digital amps are bright, so mixed with the often rising response in single drivers, could this be a recipe for trouble? I've already read quite a bit here on the Class-D forum. I might try DIY'ing one.
Any real world experience with single drivers? I must admit, they are cheap, especially the Sonic Impact. I was thinking of getting the Panny so I could use it double duty with TV and DVD's.
Doug
First, digital is relative. (Class-D amps work via PWM, which is sort of digital; Chip-Amps are essentially really nasty solid-state amps that work much better than they have any right to.)
Decibel Dungeon (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nuukspot/decdun/) has some information on chip-amps; the tube-buffered non-inverted gainclone on his site is supposed to be absolute audio excellence; BrianGT's chip amps are supposed to be quite good too, and a good value for the dollar. (80$ for his top-of-the-line kit, not including transformers and pots.)
Alternately, if you want to go DIY, Decibel Dungeon features CarlosFM's snubberized chip-amp, which is a very nice tube-free solution.
Second, although I can't compare them, the T-amp and GainClone are both supposed to have excellent sound. However, the gainclone is MUCH more powerful, and can be built to your exact specifications. The T-amp, on the other hand, can be run off of a 12-volt battery, but requires very high efficiency speakers.
Decibel Dungeon (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nuukspot/decdun/) has some information on chip-amps; the tube-buffered non-inverted gainclone on his site is supposed to be absolute audio excellence; BrianGT's chip amps are supposed to be quite good too, and a good value for the dollar. (80$ for his top-of-the-line kit, not including transformers and pots.)
Alternately, if you want to go DIY, Decibel Dungeon features CarlosFM's snubberized chip-amp, which is a very nice tube-free solution.
Second, although I can't compare them, the T-amp and GainClone are both supposed to have excellent sound. However, the gainclone is MUCH more powerful, and can be built to your exact specifications. The T-amp, on the other hand, can be run off of a 12-volt battery, but requires very high efficiency speakers.
I am using a Panasonic because it is more detailed, dynamic and neutral than the T-Amp, but that`s a matter of taste. If you are a tube person you may like the Tripath better. An objective advantage of the panasonic is the higher wattage and the volume control via changing the rail voltage of the output transistors, making it suitable for a wide range of speaker sensitivities. By the way, sensitivity can also be too high for the Tripath. I had very limited dynamic range with Ciare CH250 (4Ohm, 96dB ^= 8Ohm 99dB). A fullranger is a good thing, because the output filter of the amp interferes with mid/high x-over. For conventional speakers better use concepts with post-filter feedback like UCD.
I hope I could answer some of your questions.
Regards, Oliver
I hope I could answer some of your questions.
Regards, Oliver
Thanks Teapot for that overview. What I am actually getting at is what someone who builds or designs high-efficiency single driver speakers has experienced in the way of sound with these newer types of amps. I've heard generally positive things in the amp forums themselves, but I really would like to hear someone's perspective from the loudspeaker side.
I will go on record right now saying that I believe these types of amps will revolutionize audio over the next ten years. Love 'em or hate 'em, they will be like the CD. I figure now that I need an amp, I might as well get used to it.
Doug
I will go on record right now saying that I believe these types of amps will revolutionize audio over the next ten years. Love 'em or hate 'em, they will be like the CD. I figure now that I need an amp, I might as well get used to it.
Doug
You might want to take a look at this http://www.redwineaudio.com/. Vinnie Rossi works with Louis Chochos, who is Omega speakers and specializes in single driver speakers. Vinnie mods Tripath amps as found in the SI and Teac amps. He is coming out with a signature amp that utilizes custom chips from Tripath soon. Both these guys have their own forums on the Audiocircles site. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php
Doug
Tread lightly with what you say. Many folks feel the CD ruined audio and it has no place in high end. No, I don't abide by that.
I'll just add my 2 cents here...I have an Audio Zone prototype, (final production piece is similar to the 47 Labs Gaincard, but it uses higher-end components). Again, mine is a prototype and comes in at 40 watts.
I also have a little Sonic Impact amp. I had the Welborne Labs 300Bs, which are excellent amps.
Short version, I tried the Sonic Impact and liked the upper end extension. I knew I was missing something, but didn't realize how much. Didn't love the amp, pretty dry and SS sounding. Kept the 300Bs going until I came across the Audio Zone. This one is a keeper, much more authority and extension while still being smooth.
As of now, I have the Audio Zone. If you're looking around, look into the Scott Nixon amps and the Red Wine Audio amps. Both very good.
Check out the original Sonic Impact review on 6moons.com in their review archives. It's a bit over hyped, in my opinion, but gives you an idea. They mate it with Terry Cain's single driver speakers, (works of art).
I've heard good things about the Panasonic. Lots of options, best of luck.
Layne
Tread lightly with what you say. Many folks feel the CD ruined audio and it has no place in high end. No, I don't abide by that.
I'll just add my 2 cents here...I have an Audio Zone prototype, (final production piece is similar to the 47 Labs Gaincard, but it uses higher-end components). Again, mine is a prototype and comes in at 40 watts.
I also have a little Sonic Impact amp. I had the Welborne Labs 300Bs, which are excellent amps.
Short version, I tried the Sonic Impact and liked the upper end extension. I knew I was missing something, but didn't realize how much. Didn't love the amp, pretty dry and SS sounding. Kept the 300Bs going until I came across the Audio Zone. This one is a keeper, much more authority and extension while still being smooth.
As of now, I have the Audio Zone. If you're looking around, look into the Scott Nixon amps and the Red Wine Audio amps. Both very good.
Check out the original Sonic Impact review on 6moons.com in their review archives. It's a bit over hyped, in my opinion, but gives you an idea. They mate it with Terry Cain's single driver speakers, (works of art).
I've heard good things about the Panasonic. Lots of options, best of luck.
Layne
I'm probably the least indicated to give an opinion here as I don't currently own a true fullrange, but, please consider that I have heard noone that found Hypex' UCD amp "bright". On the contrary, many think that the first time they heard UCD's they thought about a lack of HF extension, finally concluding that HF response was totally correct and natural sounding.
On other hand, UCD modules are "load-independent" with very low output impedance, in such a way that they extract the possiblities of the driver on low fequencies, giving a very detailed and articulated performance.
I used my UCD400 to drive these:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=74241&highlight=
These have dwarf drivers (in fact, my test speakers) and nobody believes the bass output from them. I have a friend who is teacher in Physics at a prestigious University here that could not believe it either and just listened to them in complete silence
I am waiting for the drivers to build true Autograph and also a 1:2 replica with probably Fostex FE206E, to join the club
I hope this helps.
M
Konut: Yes, I've followed Vinnie's work from day one. I'm happy for his success. Never heard one of his amps, though.
1Speed: True. CD's were a freight train. Have you heard the new Super-T amp from Sonic Impact? It claims they've solved the bass extension problem in the original, but I really would like to hear more.
FYI: My amp of 21 years is (was) an Onkyo Integra A-8087, solid state, 100 wpc. A highly regarded mid-fi amp in it's day. I figure it has about 80,000 hours on it.
Doug
1Speed: True. CD's were a freight train. Have you heard the new Super-T amp from Sonic Impact? It claims they've solved the bass extension problem in the original, but I really would like to hear more.
FYI: My amp of 21 years is (was) an Onkyo Integra A-8087, solid state, 100 wpc. A highly regarded mid-fi amp in it's day. I figure it has about 80,000 hours on it.
Doug
>>> I will go on record right now saying that I believe these types of amps will revolutionize audio over the next ten years.
I agree. My SI (original $30) sounds great with my PioneerB20, Fostex 127e and TB Bamboo drivers. I expect it to sound just as good with other 89+ db drivers. These are all 8ohm drivers and the amp is supposed to be more powerful into 4ohm loads but i never tried that.
Volume is plenty loud with the drivers above in my 17' x 13' room.
I would buy the Super T if i didnt already have 3 originals.
The SI sounds better than my rega brio amp that i bought for $450.
It doesnt sound better than my Cary tube amp. But when not being compared to a superior amp it sounds great and gives up nothing.
http://www.zillaspeak.com/systems.asp
Godzilla
I agree. My SI (original $30) sounds great with my PioneerB20, Fostex 127e and TB Bamboo drivers. I expect it to sound just as good with other 89+ db drivers. These are all 8ohm drivers and the amp is supposed to be more powerful into 4ohm loads but i never tried that.
Volume is plenty loud with the drivers above in my 17' x 13' room.
I would buy the Super T if i didnt already have 3 originals.
The SI sounds better than my rega brio amp that i bought for $450.
It doesnt sound better than my Cary tube amp. But when not being compared to a superior amp it sounds great and gives up nothing.
http://www.zillaspeak.com/systems.asp
Godzilla
Hi Taperwood,
Built a pair of single range Fostex (83E) in double base reflex enclosures to match my Tripath amp (DIY- Charlize)
The sound is gorgeous, very fast and dynamic. Naturally the base is a little weka which i currently augment with a REL sub. There is something aboout the directness of the Tripath with the no cross over full range which translates very direclty into an unmistakable live presence.
I have owned aktiv Linn for many years and always considred them honest, fast and neutral, but the Linn sounds sluggish in comparriosn to my 10w tripath.
The link to my speakers can be found here (if you care)
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vopin&1134928131&view
And the lstest rendition of my tripath (different to what was posted above is here)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75726
The synergy between a full range driver and a class t seems like a natural way to go... who know we may see a resugence in commercial full range drivers as a result in class d amps
Built a pair of single range Fostex (83E) in double base reflex enclosures to match my Tripath amp (DIY- Charlize)
The sound is gorgeous, very fast and dynamic. Naturally the base is a little weka which i currently augment with a REL sub. There is something aboout the directness of the Tripath with the no cross over full range which translates very direclty into an unmistakable live presence.
I have owned aktiv Linn for many years and always considred them honest, fast and neutral, but the Linn sounds sluggish in comparriosn to my 10w tripath.
The link to my speakers can be found here (if you care)
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vopin&1134928131&view
And the lstest rendition of my tripath (different to what was posted above is here)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75726
The synergy between a full range driver and a class t seems like a natural way to go... who know we may see a resugence in commercial full range drivers as a result in class d amps
Maxlorez,
It's true, I've lumped all these amps in the same boat. In the threads I've followed elsewhere, when confronted with the "bright" issue, almost everyone eventually concludes it is more accurate rather than "bright". But that still raises the question of whether single drivers with rising responses would sound too bright, even if it is in fact more accurate, and what steps might be taken, if any, to account for it.
Your speakers look great. I will look into their design.
Doug
It's true, I've lumped all these amps in the same boat. In the threads I've followed elsewhere, when confronted with the "bright" issue, almost everyone eventually concludes it is more accurate rather than "bright". But that still raises the question of whether single drivers with rising responses would sound too bright, even if it is in fact more accurate, and what steps might be taken, if any, to account for it.
Your speakers look great. I will look into their design.
Doug
Sheesh, the SI $30 amp is only down -3db at 30hz... -5db at 20hz... according to that chart.
My Pioneer/Piezos have plenty of bass with them - subjectively. The Stereophile cd goes lower than 60hz... not much below that. Music sounds fine and lovely.
The Super T probably sounds fuller based on customer comments.. so i would buy that one. But the SI amps i have are totally satisfying... crisp, clear and not forward sounding at all.
Godzilla
My Pioneer/Piezos have plenty of bass with them - subjectively. The Stereophile cd goes lower than 60hz... not much below that. Music sounds fine and lovely.
The Super T probably sounds fuller based on customer comments.. so i would buy that one. But the SI amps i have are totally satisfying... crisp, clear and not forward sounding at all.
Godzilla
Given the small sizes of most of these amps, and the switch to computerized source (another great thing, IMO) it looks like eventually the only thing left to look at in your room will be the speakers. In my case, that would be a good thing, since my TV and equipment rack stick out a mile, and because of that, there's a huge hole in the sound when the speakers are back up against the wall (wife's preferred location) .
Doug
) .Doug
since your wall unit is deep you can possibly go deep with your speakers. this way you can build a back loaded horn (which balances out the rising frequency response of many full rangers) and place them on either side of the wall unit.
At least you can build larger volume boxes and position them on the sides as well.
http://www.zillaspeak.com/pioneerb20-piezo.asp
I'm currently listening to these speakers (right now!) connected to the SI amp... very nice combo!
Godzilla
At least you can build larger volume boxes and position them on the sides as well.
http://www.zillaspeak.com/pioneerb20-piezo.asp
I'm currently listening to these speakers (right now!) connected to the SI amp... very nice combo!
Godzilla
I have Tripath 2020 and full range speakers (Audio Nirvanas 8inch). This is the best combination i have found so far, and ironically the cheapest.
I agree with Neils earlier comments and also find it preferable to augment the bass output a little. Having said that, the AN drivers do a respectable job of reproducing bass and are superb value for money.
I agree with Neils earlier comments and also find it preferable to augment the bass output a little. Having said that, the AN drivers do a respectable job of reproducing bass and are superb value for money.
'Zilla,
Actually, I kind of want to get rid of all the stuff between my speakers. Get a small LCD or plasma for the TV and a front projector with drop-down screen for movies. That way, everything will be flat against the wall (or window in this case), and I can avoid messing up the soundstage from the speakers no matter where I put them.
My latest project works best close to the wall with nothing between the cabinets for best sound. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75940
I notice the Pioneer speaks in your link use pine for the cabinetry. What's your take on that? I'm also thinking about using solid wood.
Doug
Actually, I kind of want to get rid of all the stuff between my speakers. Get a small LCD or plasma for the TV and a front projector with drop-down screen for movies. That way, everything will be flat against the wall (or window in this case), and I can avoid messing up the soundstage from the speakers no matter where I put them.
My latest project works best close to the wall with nothing between the cabinets for best sound. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75940
I notice the Pioneer speaks in your link use pine for the cabinetry. What's your take on that? I'm also thinking about using solid wood.
Doug
Your speakers look really interesting btw... and the 108 should work great with the SI amp IMO based on my positive experience with the 127e, etc.
The Pioneer/Piezos are only 7" deep btw... kinda slim. The closer to the wall the fuller the bass. I leave them out about 8 to 10 inches to sit flush with the book case they flank.
As for the pine... it's my fav to work with... tho i have had it crack after the box was complete. Only once in 5 projects but enough for me to worry in the future.
I prefer the sound of pine to mdf and particle board... more life to the sound... it's only a minor improvement... but audible. I am willing to take the chance with pine because it's cheap enough and if the cabs crack again i can just work on another project.
Peace,
Godzilla
The Pioneer/Piezos are only 7" deep btw... kinda slim. The closer to the wall the fuller the bass. I leave them out about 8 to 10 inches to sit flush with the book case they flank.
As for the pine... it's my fav to work with... tho i have had it crack after the box was complete. Only once in 5 projects but enough for me to worry in the future.
I prefer the sound of pine to mdf and particle board... more life to the sound... it's only a minor improvement... but audible. I am willing to take the chance with pine because it's cheap enough and if the cabs crack again i can just work on another project.
Peace,
Godzilla
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