The Jantzen Superior Z caps were installed yesterday. Interestingly they sound more detailed in the lower treble than my previous Ansar / Audio Note / FT2 mix, so far so good, however the upper treble sounds dark. I have added small FT2 bypass caps which have opened things up a little, but not enough. I still miss the extended harmonics from the Ansars. It may be that an Ansar /Jantzen mix proves optimum ( will probably try that tomorrow) but in all honesty the Jantzens make these ribbons sound rather dull...at least so far.
Hmmm
Hmmm
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Perhaps they would improve a little but I'm not convinced it would be enough. I've reinstated the Ansars with their bypassing caps and the comparison is stark. The Jantzens seem more detailed in the lower treble but more shut in further up. Relatively speaking the Ansar mix is substantially more lush, smooth, extended and airy, at least in this set-up. Nothing is forced.
Perhaps this may have turned out differently with the Ribbon faceplate modified as you have done Mike, so that may be a project for another day...in any case I'd be very interested to see a picture of what you have done.
Tim
Perhaps this may have turned out differently with the Ribbon faceplate modified as you have done Mike, so that may be a project for another day...in any case I'd be very interested to see a picture of what you have done.
Tim
Attachments
Hi Tim,
Sorry you didn't like the caps. I do not think that removing the grill will impact the tonal quality - rather I have found, both with Founteks & Aurum Cantus that the sound becomes clearer & cleaner with the grill removed.
I have attached a pic of my ribbons. I just removed the faceplate, took out the grill and put them back together again - I seem to recall that there may have been some adhesive but I did this mod about 8 years ago so cannot recall all the details.
CAUTION - removing the grill leave the ribbon exposed & vulnerable. Be particularly careful with any magnetic metals - they can be strongly pulled towards the ribbon & damage it. That said, I did damage one of mine ( a few years after the mod ) and it still sounds much better than with the grill on, so for me this mod is a no brainer.
However, based on my last piece of advise, I felt it necessary to give the full disclosure - If you try this mod, I hope you like it as much as I did.
mike
Sorry you didn't like the caps. I do not think that removing the grill will impact the tonal quality - rather I have found, both with Founteks & Aurum Cantus that the sound becomes clearer & cleaner with the grill removed.
I have attached a pic of my ribbons. I just removed the faceplate, took out the grill and put them back together again - I seem to recall that there may have been some adhesive but I did this mod about 8 years ago so cannot recall all the details.
CAUTION - removing the grill leave the ribbon exposed & vulnerable. Be particularly careful with any magnetic metals - they can be strongly pulled towards the ribbon & damage it. That said, I did damage one of mine ( a few years after the mod ) and it still sounds much better than with the grill on, so for me this mod is a no brainer.
However, based on my last piece of advise, I felt it necessary to give the full disclosure - If you try this mod, I hope you like it as much as I did.
mike
Attachments
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G2SI faceplate modification complete - the metal grills have been removed. Very straightforward as they were held in place under the edge of some self adhesive foam gasket which can be lifting up to free the grill, then stuck back down again.
The improvement is not subtle!
Thanks again for the Suggestion Mike
Tim
The improvement is not subtle!
Thanks again for the Suggestion Mike
Tim
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using with active crossover
Hi Jim ,
I built the mini monitors a few years back to your original spec... I love them. I always build my speakers with split crossovers so I can play with amps etc and one day I thought I would hook them into my three way active system. I set the crossovers at 100 Hz and 3000 Hz and, as expected, they sounded great, toed in a little to keep that wonderful soundstage. My question is which crossover type would be best and how steep -using Behringer 24-96- bearing in mind the crossovers and BSC in the mini monitors. Thank you for sharing an outstanding design with us all. Steve
Hi Jim ,
I built the mini monitors a few years back to your original spec... I love them. I always build my speakers with split crossovers so I can play with amps etc and one day I thought I would hook them into my three way active system. I set the crossovers at 100 Hz and 3000 Hz and, as expected, they sounded great, toed in a little to keep that wonderful soundstage. My question is which crossover type would be best and how steep -using Behringer 24-96- bearing in mind the crossovers and BSC in the mini monitors. Thank you for sharing an outstanding design with us all. Steve
microx,
Thanks for the update on your JX92S mini-monitors with the Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeters. I love my Jordan speakers and I appreciate your praise.
I still use my mini-monitors and the MLTL 'crossing over Jordan' speakers in my home theater set-up. Also I build most of my prototype speakers with bi-amp terminal cups so that I could separately access the woofer or the tweeter. But I connect my speakers via passive crossovers vs. an active bi-amp connection as you do. My passive crossover split the woofer and tweeter around 2000 Hz with a second order low pass on the woofer and a third order high pass on the tweeter.
Your crossover points at 100 Hz (I assume that you employ a sub woofer below 100 Hz) with the JX92S covering the 100 to 3000 Hz range with the tweeter operating above 3000 Hz. Not knowing your current crossover slopes, I would start with a second order LR crossover at 100 Hz separation. Then use a fourth order LR high and low at 3000 Hz between the woofer and tweeter. I assume that your mini-monitors use a sealed (or stuffed port) cabinet for the JX92S. You may need to try changing the polarity of the tweeter to determine which connection sounds the best (if you have measuring capability you will notice a dip in the frequency response for one connection but not the other). A second order LR crossover for the woofer and tweeter may be adequate if you take care to not over drive your tweeters. Again you can try different crossover slopes and listen to music that you enjoy to determine which settings are more pleasing.
While a fourth order crossover for the tweeter should be adequate to protect your tweeter, I have used a series 30 mfd capacitor to protect each ribbon. I am usually concerned about over driving during the power up and down sequence.
I favor crossing over the woofer/tweeter around 2000 Hz vs. 3000 Hz but if you are satisfied with 3000, then continue using that point. The Jordan starts to have a rising response above 2000 Hz. My experience is that the 2000 Hz area gave me a better blend between the woofer and tweeter but this is a matter of your preference and how your room and speakers integrate.
Good luck in your efforts!
Jim
Thanks for the update on your JX92S mini-monitors with the Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeters. I love my Jordan speakers and I appreciate your praise.
I still use my mini-monitors and the MLTL 'crossing over Jordan' speakers in my home theater set-up. Also I build most of my prototype speakers with bi-amp terminal cups so that I could separately access the woofer or the tweeter. But I connect my speakers via passive crossovers vs. an active bi-amp connection as you do. My passive crossover split the woofer and tweeter around 2000 Hz with a second order low pass on the woofer and a third order high pass on the tweeter.
Your crossover points at 100 Hz (I assume that you employ a sub woofer below 100 Hz) with the JX92S covering the 100 to 3000 Hz range with the tweeter operating above 3000 Hz. Not knowing your current crossover slopes, I would start with a second order LR crossover at 100 Hz separation. Then use a fourth order LR high and low at 3000 Hz between the woofer and tweeter. I assume that your mini-monitors use a sealed (or stuffed port) cabinet for the JX92S. You may need to try changing the polarity of the tweeter to determine which connection sounds the best (if you have measuring capability you will notice a dip in the frequency response for one connection but not the other). A second order LR crossover for the woofer and tweeter may be adequate if you take care to not over drive your tweeters. Again you can try different crossover slopes and listen to music that you enjoy to determine which settings are more pleasing.
While a fourth order crossover for the tweeter should be adequate to protect your tweeter, I have used a series 30 mfd capacitor to protect each ribbon. I am usually concerned about over driving during the power up and down sequence.
I favor crossing over the woofer/tweeter around 2000 Hz vs. 3000 Hz but if you are satisfied with 3000, then continue using that point. The Jordan starts to have a rising response above 2000 Hz. My experience is that the 2000 Hz area gave me a better blend between the woofer and tweeter but this is a matter of your preference and how your room and speakers integrate.
Good luck in your efforts!
Jim
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Tim,
You are correct on the mini monitor crossover point. I can only blame my poor memory on the passage of nearly 15 years since the original mini monitor was designed. I should have consulted my notes before posting.
The G2si ribbon in the mini-monitor and MLTL designs needs a crossover in the 3000 Hz area. I also did a MTM with different mid range drivers and the Aurum Cantus G2 which was crossed in the 2000 to 3000 Hz area but the shorter G2si model sounds better at 3000 hz.
Jim
You are correct on the mini monitor crossover point. I can only blame my poor memory on the passage of nearly 15 years since the original mini monitor was designed. I should have consulted my notes before posting.
The G2si ribbon in the mini-monitor and MLTL designs needs a crossover in the 3000 Hz area. I also did a MTM with different mid range drivers and the Aurum Cantus G2 which was crossed in the 2000 to 3000 Hz area but the shorter G2si model sounds better at 3000 hz.
Jim
re Jordan drivers
Hi Jim,
thanks for your comprehensive reply, we have arrived at the same crossover settings but I was curious about the xover point 2000 not 3000hz now cleared up.
I met Ted Jordan at a Ideal Homes Exhibition in Birmingham UK 50 years ago. The rest of the show was all about curtains and washing machines etc and Ted looked a bit bored on his little stand as nobody was interested, lucky for me! We chatted for an hour or more and he drew me a plan for a reflex enclosure with a tuned tunnel with a port directly under the driver. Then the company was Jordan Watts and I saved some cash and bought a pair of drivers and built the enclosures. The Jordan Watts modules were square and painted white and they were light years in front of anything else sonic wise, delivering window shaking bass and creamy smooth mid and top. How I wish I still had them. Steve
Hi Jim,
thanks for your comprehensive reply, we have arrived at the same crossover settings but I was curious about the xover point 2000 not 3000hz now cleared up.
I met Ted Jordan at a Ideal Homes Exhibition in Birmingham UK 50 years ago. The rest of the show was all about curtains and washing machines etc and Ted looked a bit bored on his little stand as nobody was interested, lucky for me! We chatted for an hour or more and he drew me a plan for a reflex enclosure with a tuned tunnel with a port directly under the driver. Then the company was Jordan Watts and I saved some cash and bought a pair of drivers and built the enclosures. The Jordan Watts modules were square and painted white and they were light years in front of anything else sonic wise, delivering window shaking bass and creamy smooth mid and top. How I wish I still had them. Steve
Jim Griffin's mini monitor concept adapted to Jordan VTL
Hello,
I am thinking about adding the G2si to my Jordan VTL "the wall". I understand that there will be implications of the different baffel size that I need account for in the cross-over.
My question is about the positioning of the ribbon though. Unfortunately there is no sufficint room above the the JX92 to locate the ribbon directly above as in the mini monitors. Placing the ribbons on top of the enclosure would locate them 8cm apart from the Jordan.
Could that be compensated for my tilting the ribbons down a few degrees?
Or should they better be placed be on the side of the Jordan?
One option could also be to place the ribbons below the Jordans and tilt the entire speaker back a few degrees.
Anyone done this? Opinions and suggestions most welcome!
Thanks,
Robert
Hello,
I am thinking about adding the G2si to my Jordan VTL "the wall". I understand that there will be implications of the different baffel size that I need account for in the cross-over.
My question is about the positioning of the ribbon though. Unfortunately there is no sufficint room above the the JX92 to locate the ribbon directly above as in the mini monitors. Placing the ribbons on top of the enclosure would locate them 8cm apart from the Jordan.
Could that be compensated for my tilting the ribbons down a few degrees?
Or should they better be placed be on the side of the Jordan?
One option could also be to place the ribbons below the Jordans and tilt the entire speaker back a few degrees.
Anyone done this? Opinions and suggestions most welcome!
Thanks,
Robert
To the side is not a good idea although underneath is a possibility. One possibility (depending on the finish of your VTLs) would be to extend the top of the cabinet - either with a panel at the front only or with a complete 'box' (back, top and sides) and then fit the ribbon close to the JX92S. It may look and sound better than the other options.
Jim will have ideas about the adjustment to the crossover.
Jim will have ideas about the adjustment to the crossover.
The Jordan with a ribbon design was derived from measurements made from my enclosures with drivers installed. Hence, the VTL box isn't optimal for the Jordan/ribbon design. But my crossover design is likely a starting point for your work if you wish to add a ribbon tweeter to your speakers.
Placement of the JX92s and G2si ribbon tweeter are about 8 mm (edge to edge) apart in my design. Colin's suggestion of extending the VTL enclosure to encompass the tweeter permits the tweeter to be closer to the Jordan driver. You would not need to include the JX92S in the extended portion of the cabinet so no alignment changes for the bass/mid response. This would be better than placing the ribbon on top of your cabinet.
Best solution is to clone my MLTL design with the ribbon as I did. You will achieve improved bass and have better treble as well. But my approach isn't a 'wall' solution but a petite tower.
Placement of the JX92s and G2si ribbon tweeter are about 8 mm (edge to edge) apart in my design. Colin's suggestion of extending the VTL enclosure to encompass the tweeter permits the tweeter to be closer to the Jordan driver. You would not need to include the JX92S in the extended portion of the cabinet so no alignment changes for the bass/mid response. This would be better than placing the ribbon on top of your cabinet.
Best solution is to clone my MLTL design with the ribbon as I did. You will achieve improved bass and have better treble as well. But my approach isn't a 'wall' solution but a petite tower.
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Colin, Jim,
thanks for your expertise, it is much appreciated! I guess I will start with a "franken-wall" kind of set-up and then move to Jim's MLTL design when I find the time to build the cabs.
Are there complete plans online? I found this 2nd generation plan:
https://penoff.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/mltl_35_jordan.pdf
thanks for your expertise, it is much appreciated! I guess I will start with a "franken-wall" kind of set-up and then move to Jim's MLTL design when I find the time to build the cabs.
Are there complete plans online? I found this 2nd generation plan:
https://penoff.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/mltl_35_jordan.pdf
Rob ,
The link you gave is very good plan and will yield an excellent speaker but does not include the addition of the ribbon. My original Jordan JX92S with a ribbon MLTL thread is:
Jordan with a Ribbon MLTL
which is for the 48 inch long length MLTL. Many details on execution as you read through the pages of that thread. You can add the ribbon to the 35" MLTL design and have room for the tweeter above the Jordan.
With the 35" design you would need to tilt the speaker slightly as the ribbon needs to be at ear level at the listening position. Another way achieve the same effect would be to add a false bottom (inert cabinet section) to the 35" plan to raise it a few inches.
Ideally the tweeter needs to be centered at 37 inches height for a seated listening position.
Jim
The link you gave is very good plan and will yield an excellent speaker but does not include the addition of the ribbon. My original Jordan JX92S with a ribbon MLTL thread is:
Jordan with a Ribbon MLTL
which is for the 48 inch long length MLTL. Many details on execution as you read through the pages of that thread. You can add the ribbon to the 35" MLTL design and have room for the tweeter above the Jordan.
With the 35" design you would need to tilt the speaker slightly as the ribbon needs to be at ear level at the listening position. Another way achieve the same effect would be to add a false bottom (inert cabinet section) to the 35" plan to raise it a few inches.
Ideally the tweeter needs to be centered at 37 inches height for a seated listening position.
Jim
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